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Thu, 16 Nov 2023 14:23:50 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.9.0-alpha0-1108-g3a29173c6d-fm-20231031.005-g3a29173c MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <87bkbtvigj.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87bkbtvigj.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2023 14:23:29 -0500 From: "John Ericson" To: guix-devel@gnu.org, =?UTF-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= , "Christopher Baines" Cc: "Florian Klink" , "Valentin Gagarin" , "Maxim Cournoyer" Subject: Ensuring daemon interop, maybe also store layer standardization? Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=1c85e9721932457babb9a8975868b271 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=64.147.123.21; envelope-from=list@johnericson.me; helo=wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 16 Nov 2023 16:26:47 -0500 X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Spam-Score: 1.32 X-Spam-Score: 1.32 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: D6E4A36A49 X-Migadu-Scanner: mx10.migadu.com X-TUID: ADAauihOTq9G --1c85e9721932457babb9a8975868b271 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Nov 16, 2023, at 10:14 AM, Ludovic Court=C3=A8s wrote: > My take is that the daemon rewrite in Guix will aim for 100% > compatibility at the protocol level (in fact part of what=E2=80=99s ne= eded is > already available as (guix =E2=80=A6) modules), probably with just the= same > feature set. Christopher Baines may have clearer ideas. Excellent! I am glad that Florian already emailed about this, I had similar thought= s. I have long been a proponent of ensuring interoperability in the "store = layer" between Nix, Guix, Tvix, and anyone else that wants to have an im= plementation. (To me, the daemon is just one possible implementation, an= RPC bridge to another implementation.) There are some good developments= on the Nix side in this space I've been meaning to email this mailing l= ist about. Glad the recent guix-daemon work and ensuing discussion are f= inally getting me to do so! Here they are: =E2=80=A2 RFC 134 https://github.com/NixOS/rfcs/blob/master/rfcs/0134-n= ix-store-layer.md: this is the linchpin holding a few things together on= the Nix side. Nix gone back and forth over the years emphasizing the de= gree to which the store layer beneath the Nix language is self-contained= and can be used/understood on its own. With that RFC we're finally comm= itting to "show off the store layer" as official policy. =E2=80=A2 https://nixos.org/manual/nix/unstable/store/ there is a new t= op-level section of the Nix manual that is commentating the store-layer.= Expect it to grow rapidly in the coming months as new information is wr= itten, and existing information that belongs here but is tagging along e= lsewhere is moved here. =E2=80=A2 Unit tests with external data "golden masters" for serializes= for the daemon protocol https://github.com/NixOS/nix/tree/master/unit-t= est-data/libstore/worker-protocol, and derivation ATerm format https://g= ithub.com/NixOS/nix/tree/master/unit-test-data/libstore/derivation. (Sin= ce the Guix fork I've tried to systematize the daemon protocol with bidi= rectional serializers for explicit data types, which the RPC layer uses.= ) The test data is separate files with the explicit intention of making = them easy to reuse in other implementations :), as opposed to just in-co= de string/binary literals which would be very inconvenient for them. =E2=80=A2 https://nixos.org/manual/nix/unstable/command-ref/new-cli/nix= 3-derivation-add making sure the JSON derivation format is round-tripabl= e with a new command, for ease of use and in hopes that we might someday= ditch "ATerm" for the on-disk format for everyone's benefit. =E2=80=A2 https://github.com/NixOS/nix/pull/8699 C bindings for the Nix= store. Perhaps this isn't so important now that you all are going for t= he full rewrite, but I saw Maxim's early email about creating guile bind= ings for a gradual rewrite. The C bindings are explicitly made with the = idea of making other langauge bindings easier (e.g. https://github.com/N= ixOS/nix/pull/7735, https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hercules-ci-cnix= -store). Still mentioning this in case it is useful as a "Plan B". Furthermore, I hope that beyond merely ensuring some interop with what w= e have already, we work to further keep things in sync and hopefully con= verging (where was have diverging new features like Blake hashing in Gui= x and content-addressed derivations in Nix) going forward. To that end, = I would love to set up an implementation-agnostic standard, maybe even a= n IETF standard (!). I think while we all have different ideas (and should continue to have d= ifferent ideas!) on what the user-facing package language looks like, we= do essential agree on what this store interface looks like. It is a "na= rrow waist" which can be implemented numerous different ways, and used i= n numerous different high level packaging paradigms. It is this quality = that makes it so worthy of standardization. > I=E2=80=99m interested in hearing how you view content-addressing and = its use. > In Guix there=E2=80=99s one proposal based on ERIS: >=20 > https://issues.guix.gnu.org/52555#8 >=20 > Previously there was an experiment to implement what you described at > =E2=80=9Cpartial substitution=E2=80=9D: >=20 > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guix-devel/2021-01/msg00080.html I have been talking a lot to Florian about these things too. Long ago I = emailed Ludo and some others about the IPFS & Nix work. Since then RFC 1= 33 was accepted, https://github.com/NixOS/rfcs/blob/master/rfcs/0133-git= -hashing.md, which prepares the way for a lot of that, and more recently= https://github.com/NixOS/nix/pull/9294 (merged) has begun the implement= ation. It sounds like this ERIS plan and Tvix's content addressing are fairly s= imilar --- use improved content addressing "underneath the hood". The th= ing I have been working on is trying to expose content-addressing all th= e way into the store path for end-to-end trustlessless. I think for build artifacts, either way is fine. But for source code the= end-to-end trustlessness is nice for treating things like Software Heri= tage as a substituter of last resort. (I made https://docs.softwareherit= age.org/devel/swh-web/uri-scheme-api.html#get--api-1-raw-(swhid)- forto = spit out raw git objects for https://blog.obsidian.systems/software-heri= tage-bridge/, but the pipelining latency issues mean something like SWH'= s "Vault API" is probably better.) ---------- That's a big wall of text, but glad it's all out there. Stuff is really = cooking in all our ecosystems these days, and I'm very excited for where= things are going! John --1c85e9721932457babb9a8975868b271 Content-Type: text/html;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Thu, No= v 16, 2023, at 10:14 AM, Ludovic Court=C3=A8s wrote:
My take is that the daemon rew= rite in Guix will aim for 100%
compatibility at the protoc= ol level (in fact part of what=E2=80=99s needed is
already= available as (guix =E2=80=A6) modules), probably with just the same
=
feature set.  Christopher Baines may have clearer ideas.=

Excellent!

=
I am glad that Florian already emailed about this, I had= similar thoughts.

I have long been a propo= nent of ensuring interoperability in the "store layer" between Nix, Guix= , Tvix, and anyone else that wants to have an implementation. (To me, th= e daemon is just one possible implementation, an RPC bridge to another i= mplementation.) There are some good developments on the Nix side in this= space I've been meaning to email this mailing list about. Glad the rece= nt guix-daemon work and ensuing discussion are finally getting me to do = so! Here they are:
  • RFC 134 https://github.co= m/NixOS/rfcs/blob/master/rfcs/0134-nix-store-layer.md: this is the l= inchpin holding a few things together on the Nix side. Nix gone back and= forth over the years emphasizing the degree to which the store layer be= neath the Nix language is self-contained and can be used/understood on i= ts own. With that RFC we're finally committing to "show off the store la= yer" as official policy.
  • https://nixos.org/manual/nix/unstable/store/ t= here is a new top-level section of the Nix manual that is commentating t= he store-layer. Expect it to grow rapidly in the coming months as new in= formation is written, and existing information that belongs here but is = tagging along elsewhere is moved here.
  • Unit tests with exter= nal data "golden masters" for serializes for the daemon protocol https://github.com/NixOS/nix/tree/master/unit-test-data/li= bstore/worker-protocol, and derivation ATerm format = https://github.com/NixOS/nix/tree/master/unit-test-data/libstore/derivat= ion. (Since the Guix fork I've tried to systematize the daemon proto= col with bidirectional serializers for explicit data types, which the RP= C layer uses.) The test data is separate files with the explicit intenti= on of making them easy to reuse in other implementations :), as opposed = to just in-code string/binary literals which would be very inconvenient = for them.
  • https://nixos.org/manual/nix/uns= table/command-ref/new-cli/nix3-derivation-add making sure the JSON d= erivation format is round-tripable with a new command, for ease of use a= nd in hopes that we might someday ditch "ATerm" for the on-disk format f= or everyone's benefit.
  • https://github.com/NixOS/nix/pull/8699 C bindings for = the Nix store. Perhaps this isn't so important now that you all are goin= g for the full rewrite, but I saw Maxim's early email about creating gui= le bindings for a gradual rewrite. The C bindings are explicitly made wi= th the idea of making other langauge bindings easier (e.g. https://github.com/NixOS/nix/pull/= 7735, https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hercules-ci-cnix-store)= . Still mentioning this in case it is useful as a "Plan B".
    • Furthermore, I hope that beyond merely ensuring some interop with = what we have already, we work to further keep things in sync and hopeful= ly converging (where was have diverging new features like Blake hashing = in Guix and content-addressed derivations in Nix) going forward. To that= end, I would love to set up an implementation-agnostic standard, maybe = even an IETF standard (!).

    I think while we= all have different ideas (and should continue to have different ideas!)= on what the user-facing package language looks like, we do essential ag= ree on what this store interface looks like. It is a "narrow waist" whic= h can be implemented numerous different ways, and used in numerous diffe= rent high level packaging paradigms. It is this quality that makes it so= worthy of standardization.

I=E2=80=99m interested in hearing = how you view content-addressing and its use.
In Guix there= =E2=80=99s one proposal based on ERIS:


Previously there wa= s an experiment to implement what you described at
=E2=80=9C= partial substitution=E2=80=9D:


I have been talking a = lot to Florian about these things too. Long ago I emailed Ludo and some = others about the IPFS & Nix work. Since then RFC 133 was accepted, <= a href=3D"https://github.com/NixOS/rfcs/blob/master/rfcs/0133-git-hashin= g.md">https://github.com/NixOS/rfcs/blob/master/rfcs/0133-git-hashing.md= , which prepares the way for a lot of that, and more recently https://github.com/NixOS/ni= x/pull/9294 (merged) has begun the implementation.
It sounds like this ERIS plan and Tvix's content addres= sing are fairly similar --- use improved content addressing "underneath = the hood". The thing I have been working on is trying to expose content-= addressing all the way into the store path for end-to-end trustlessless.=

I think for build artifacts, either way is= fine. But for source code the end-to-end trustlessness is nice for trea= ting things like Software Heritage as a substituter of last resort. (I m= ade https://docs.softwareheritage.org/de= vel/swh-web/uri-scheme-api.html#get--api-1-raw-(swhid)- forto spit o= ut raw git objects for https://blog.obsidian.systems/software-heritage-bridg= e/, but the pipelining latency issues mean something like SWH's "Vau= lt API" is probably better.)

---= -------

That's a big wall of text, but glad= it's all out there. Stuff is really cooking in all our ecosystems these= days, and I'm very excited for where things are going!
<= div>
John
--1c85e9721932457babb9a8975868b271--