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[85.127.52.93]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g12-20020a056402114c00b0052ea9ad21bdsm2648468edw.72.2023.09.09.15.20.35 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sat, 09 Sep 2023 15:20:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? From: Liliana Marie Prikler To: Ricardo Wurmus Cc: Attila Lendvai , Andreas Enge , Katherine Cox-Buday , guix-devel@gnu.org Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2023 00:20:31 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87cyyr3zdc.fsf@elephly.net> References: <87sf7o67ia.fsf@elephly.net> <9269133a74e06bfc5ee5bfeee0342ba2f5beaeb1.camel@gmail.com> <87tts44d2y.fsf@elephly.net> <4c85b742e29ebbf7fe3cde3f72961269ec26218c.camel@gmail.com> <87cyyr3zdc.fsf@elephly.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable User-Agent: Evolution 3.46.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::544; envelope-from=liliana.prikler@gmail.com; helo=mail-ed1-x544.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 889B73F208 X-Migadu-Scanner: mx1.migadu.com X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -1.93 X-Spam-Score: -1.93 X-TUID: 12IinkKvSG1x Am Samstag, dem 09.09.2023 um 21:40 +0200 schrieb Ricardo Wurmus: >=20 > Liliana Marie Prikler writes: >=20 > > > Must we force a single workflow on everyone, even if our track > > > record in reviewing and merging doesn=E2=80=99t clearly show that our= way > > > is superior? > > Again, define superior. >=20 > No, I won=E2=80=99t.=C2=A0 I think it=E2=80=99s obvious that our review p= rocess isn=E2=80=99t > working *well*.=C2=A0 So the argument that our current workflow allows fo= r > effective review is dubious.=C2=A0 Not saying that you made that claim, > just that it=E2=80=99s hard to convince others of adopting our ways when = the > results just aren=E2=80=99t great. What do you consider "the results" here? The rate at which patches are merged? This is hardly an issue our project alone is fighting and I'm not convinced that technology, more or less, will shift it in either direction. =20 Let's take our importers as an example. Bugs aside, they allow us to bump any package to the newest released version. Naturally, similar tools have evolved over in the forge world as well. The end result?=20 Bots are now writing merge request that end up ignored much like there are bugs in Guix that receive little attention due to what might as well be unfortunate timing. I'm also not sure how we can tie back contribution throughput to cognitive overhead. In fact, there might well be a Jevons paradox hiding somewhere in that less overhead per patch means that more patches can be written, which results in the same overall cognitive overhead in the long run. =20 Now, you are probably right in that our review process probably isn't working well for some value of well that yet needs to be defined.=20 However, without any frame of reference it is also a statement that can neither be verified nor falsified. I could be sitting in a burning house claiming "this is fine" or sitting in the finest restaurant claiming "this place sucks" and since you can't see me, there's no way for you to infer that I'm a cat. Cheers