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[174.51.218.141]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a6-20020a92d586000000b0034f3e97e5c2sm43520iln.32.2023.09.07.13.38.57 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 07 Sep 2023 13:38:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2023 14:38:56 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.15.0 From: Katherine Cox-Buday Subject: Re: How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? To: Liliana Marie Prikler Cc: Simon Tournier , Maxim Cournoyer , Saku Laesvuori , Attila Lendvai , Andreas Enge , guix-devel@gnu.org, "(" Newsgroups: gmane.comp.gnu.guix.devel References: <20230827135726.y33t55w4cvq6zsvb@X-kone> <874jkift8v.fsf@gmail.com> <867cp4sj7k.fsf@gmail.com> <38242808-2f06-4674-3842-aea1a5378d05@gmail.com> <87a5u0o3z2.fsf@disroot.org> <3b274703acaf446ec678e96c9d875c5d6b1a3e17.camel@gmail.com> Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: <3b274703acaf446ec678e96c9d875c5d6b1a3e17.camel@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::132; envelope-from=cox.katherine.e@gmail.com; helo=mail-il1-x132.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -35 X-Spam_score: -3.6 X-Spam_bar: --- X-Spam_report: (-3.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.473, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Scanner: mx2.migadu.com X-Spam-Score: -7.08 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 163563FFF5 X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -7.08 X-TUID: zQN3I6dsviJW On 9/5/23 2:43 PM, Liliana Marie Prikler wrote: > Am Dienstag, dem 05.09.2023 um 19:40 +0100 schrieb (: >> Liliana Marie Prikler writes: >>> Uhm, we have snippets? >> >> Well, those are exclusive to Emacs :)  And without regard to /that/ >> issue, I do think that there's a problem if the commit format is so >> complex that it's not trivial for anyone new to the project to write >> them out manually. > By definition, no amount of typing is non-trivial, safe for the empty > amount, which good luck trying to commit your changes by pure mouse > movements, I guess? > > Now, if you excuse my French, I think the problem isn't really as much > that people struggle to type out the perfect ChangeLog on the first > try, which also makes it odd to request a linter. Bear in mind that > committers will sign off anything that appears convincing enough, even > if there are smaller mistakes in the message. Trust me, I've been > there and seen that; and also done it myself. > > Instead, we have seen in this thread appeals to age, appeals to > perceived lack of personal benefit, and now appeals to typing effort, > none of which really make that great of an argument against the > ChangeLog style, especially when they come in combination with a > refusal to make use of already provided tools. I think we're starting > to see the moving of the goal post as the actual game here. > > Maybe it's time to take a step back and instead of asking “How can we > decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors?”, we should perhaps > ask “For which contributors do we want to/can we decrease the cognitive > overhead?” We have drifted much from the original post that discussed > moms with full-time jobs, who struggle to do “difficult” tasks > (simplified wording; may change the meaning of the OP a little). Now, > I personally struggle to see how your personal preference for > communication media, commit message style, and other things that were > discussed in any of the preceding threads actually correlate with being > a parent. However, I do know that with its 150 million users, most > people of the world don't have a Github account. Being one of the 4 > billion email users out there is a comparably low barrier of entry > imho. So, whose cognitive overhead do you want to reduce (besides the > obvious "my own", which everyone always tries)? Liliana, many of your responses in this thread are not OK. They have been dismissive and have strayed into personal attacks. At times I'm not sure if you're intentionally misinterpreting the conversation to try and make a point. If you disagree with something, or have a point to make, please do so directly, and without attacking anyone's character or making veiled innuendos about their motives or capabilities. Speaking for myself, I think if you asked me questions instead of inferring narratives, you'd find that our values and preferences are probably more closely aligned than you realize. We're all here to try and make Guix better, but we can't do that in a hostile environment.