From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp10.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:403:478a::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms9.migadu.com with LMTPS id 2JrlGjNC6WS9bAAAG6o9tA:P1 (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 26 Aug 2023 02:07:15 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:403:478a::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp10.migadu.com with LMTPS id 2JrlGjNC6WS9bAAAG6o9tA (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 26 Aug 2023 02:07:15 +0200 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 16D906CDAD for ; Sat, 26 Aug 2023 02:07:15 +0200 (CEST) Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20221208 header.b=GE6WqSbu; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1693008435; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=ke6uZEP1VnV8iutMCiGhI7u2BD5Gm7JyuqAV2LJyusDXYii1M5/+LYibntnh33k1fM9cRi 6ZoiPnQ1KZD0amS0A1nr7tHSqoiXYzOAH1rq0YPHdYo0ZWxIjiS5Zr8rVlFQGxS6WtXJ2k JZWUhYyPRq8z7O6bIJip+vxMhRAbIOZgkEFQKlzaoPdvQxOpCPTqgXkqlMkhLNgzm7Z+Rv rYqZ2QquQXYjx2EhYM/jOCQlaxOlEqix8GM2humtpKjyU4bjOPtUrcbKBIbuPg00QX2LBc fSbHbCTV1/ZXcxiu92C3gKv1GbBDBPRpzeCZaiJ3PFJU3Oip5cENPhPl9W1mlA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20221208 header.b=GE6WqSbu; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1693008435; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=d4XzN1v4mEr5Y4PgYn82OaVeSWu59CBs+w9nLBN1Yic=; b=qhFgc1lqtyxoxtz4XRsLOsI2k4bNi8l3APKa2uwlEps1yzPq+P747GuUmdao8H0oMOsmUs 6ATzPoG8M2YVrMYqRuto2iAuJJ+7tzOM2rQh59ODXED4m9JbwyGOpRu1uhjIiY4Lva+uXp Xmst4ZPdfwYDjaLr+iro8PCfEfw4hrHdosvs3rZ2BbwOYJ8x274D9EdcWboPw31oZhVbc2 xfzP5ga+PS/4FcXVY8GoEckfRDbMzuxt2t5wYroSxDzuMsiWQlxBS1Os5NzYeONsmjWeMg 9yGB0PgWaJJPQKKL5o195dhkGUSfZp/a1sUO7QVUKlsv/EsEOcth/ezO+s+wEw== Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qZgp5-0002qV-Fs; Fri, 25 Aug 2023 20:06:39 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qZgp2-0002qF-Cl for guix-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 25 Aug 2023 20:06:36 -0400 Received: from mail-il1-x134.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::134]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qZgp0-00087b-0V for guix-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 25 Aug 2023 20:06:36 -0400 Received: by mail-il1-x134.google.com with SMTP id e9e14a558f8ab-34ccc0fca24so5262785ab.0 for ; Fri, 25 Aug 2023 17:06:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1693008392; x=1693613192; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:from:references:newsgroups:cc :to:content-language:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=d4XzN1v4mEr5Y4PgYn82OaVeSWu59CBs+w9nLBN1Yic=; b=GE6WqSbuqgPDkBwWJ82TQQoDMd3fViXELB3MO+gGv2+DPEKwIu+P5+Zv4zcsDSpZCG v4P2FVuf6mjD7qLQyvVcJRpFp8ZAVo9aBxD/pNmwfr/uSkzTR7zzzEKDxIDpSGz08uVk 5Nr3lo/ombNOY+VWduBuzWOp45Zm4/RWX/kcBPs8gTC09FkpAmgYCTlQpXglA+LB2xet of15PS/mqyps1+BSnEd5G5HFGStC3dTTEJK5AO5qpFqjIl2cA6ZA9Yg1mcI7egVrEtJB AydhScWLcj0P8lOYoeVUPf84ARq1UFl0JVQh02L7qaBBpllQJGSGyEmJgpXFd4PEcRnf g3og== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1693008392; x=1693613192; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:from:references:newsgroups:cc :to:content-language:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=d4XzN1v4mEr5Y4PgYn82OaVeSWu59CBs+w9nLBN1Yic=; b=b5j3FSJ/4+KPypAc2kylBJlAfaZ8I2EQvNduNR44PZCymxuVox1n8mtF+/EEIYwPa6 M37cg0StIa9h0IURjLu4pYcCzhG3G+PfcC1LLaOJGjPD/hK4kLjH5yKU4GSd1XiAe9Xr CNGv28bDQTyHj3I1NX+9S79BnOTEui9msz5XYjo7TbFVEinSGNU/wJMaYPAcylSU3x90 91+xH3qb3d2Cljt5r4dBYYkkLc121D33dSBNQxpsDafYeP4+O0YULZPpNm5kyBC1wDN+ XmcrkWlkVyBFAQ7IV6B2S/Yb3883Rhitj0cWhoppAPeSu4R77KUlX/9TaQXUzzXhW18O Ojtw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YypYfjOszAY801qJs3B0+0/49ha4V+PCQXuFp5vL251lkCjwnUE +ia3l+Ef+u6uuang+tZkojo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGnVGBjrY0sB5/i939zmlOeATzzL6iivwo3e9JAAz0pPF0mPbGF/TR6XK+oP3ck8134KIrTlA== X-Received: by 2002:a6b:dc0c:0:b0:792:8230:c175 with SMTP id s12-20020a6bdc0c000000b007928230c175mr3341251ioc.6.1693008391750; Fri, 25 Aug 2023 17:06:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.2.153] (c-174-51-218-141.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [174.51.218.141]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f11-20020a056638118b00b0042b3042ccd8sm835223jas.13.2023.08.25.17.06.30 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 25 Aug 2023 17:06:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2023 18:06:29 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.13.0 Subject: Re: How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? Content-Language: en-US To: Csepp Cc: guix-devel@gnu.org Newsgroups: gmane.comp.gnu.guix.devel References: <871qfsayyx.fsf@riseup.net> From: Katherine Cox-Buday In-Reply-To: <871qfsayyx.fsf@riseup.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::134; envelope-from=cox.katherine.e@gmail.com; helo=mail-il1-x134.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -36 X-Spam_score: -3.7 X-Spam_bar: --- X-Spam_report: (-3.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.57, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Scanner: mx0.migadu.com X-Spam-Score: -8.59 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 16D906CDAD X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -8.59 X-TUID: Ggsf2dGlgQSL On 8/23/23 6:18 PM, Csepp wrote: >> * Contributing to Guix is not for you >> >>     I would be really sad if someone ever said this, but I guess it's a >>     possibility. Maybe someone like me just can't be a contributor to >> Guix until >>     I have the bandwidth to manage all the details. I would >> preemptively argue >>     that diversity of thought and experiences usually leads to better >> things. > > I really hope we can lower the barrier to entry without sacrificing code > quality precisely because of this. Lots of important use cases that > Guix could serve are ignored because the people who need them are not > represented in our community and/or they can't contribute and no one is > able/willing to write code for them. Yes, the goal has to be to lower the cognitive overhead while maintaining the level of quality. > >> * It's OK to make lots of mistakes >> >>     The people who have reviewed my code have been generous both with >> their time >>     and fixing my mistakes and then applying. Maybe this model is OK? >> I still >>     feel guilty every time a reviewer has to correct an oversight I've >> made. I >>     also want to become a committer, but I don't know how that would >> work if >>     I'm regularly making mistakes. Obviously people would still be >> reviewing my >>     commits, but presumably a committer should not regularly be making >>     mistakes. > > In a sense I agree with this, but if mistakes are this easy to make, > then I think something is wrong with the project, not with the > contributor. Instead of making people learn tightrope walking, maybe we > should be building actual bridges. Yes! For the same reason that focusing on accessibility helps everyone, focusing on making it easy to avoid mistakes helps everyone. > Guix actually fares pretty well in this regard compared to some other > projects I tried contributing to (*stares at Plan 9*), but there is > still a lot of knowledge that experienced developers take for granted > and don't actually document. Writing new packages is mostly documented > well, but as soon as something breaks, you are thrown into the deep end, > having to dissect logs, bisect commit ranges, learn strace, gdb (which > still doesn't work well on Guix), learn how to compile packages with > debug info (and actually waste some more CPU time and IO on rebuilding a > package you already have), learn how to adapt docs from other distros, > etc, etc, etc. > I've been trying to document these at least for myself, but haven't yet > had time to put them together into something others could read. A lot of the activities you mentioned fall into the "learn to be a developer" category, and I think it's a little too broad of a target, at least for what I was trying to point out. > By the way, that's another issue. Using a TeX based document format for > the docs is, uuuh, maybe not the best idea. Info is a pretty okayish > documentation reader, but it's a relatively big barrier to entry > compared to what you need to know to make a small edit to the Arch wiki. > This way mostly just experienced contributors write docs, not the > users who just want to document how they made some weird use case > possible. Another great example. I don't write much documentation because of this. -- Katherine