From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp12.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id qKLeMM2RtGM6ZQEAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2023 21:36:29 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp12.migadu.com with LMTPS id 6OrsMM2RtGMHBQAAauVa8A (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2023 21:36:29 +0100 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D7E091DD for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2023 21:36:29 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pCo0s-00019j-F3; Tue, 03 Jan 2023 15:35:58 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pCo0q-00019J-Ld for guix-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2023 15:35:56 -0500 Received: from libre.brussels ([144.76.234.112]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pCo0o-00051L-CD; Tue, 03 Jan 2023 15:35:56 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=libre.brussels; s=mail; t=1672778150; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=MU2aOjrwH+0MQyVTTmg0kHXUOCJ34TTWQmuuz6TUyCU=; b=PGmbPabF8BWl9WQRUy56EF5lBUJU9FjTNbX/WqpExXVsoOJiAjLarjVOmEIPjTkUwCERO7 qaA8gmRhFrP4sHaqarNlDx5T/ltG2l2cnURhif8GeRl9jzczv7HYvdSQ5iw/GM10grkTEu p3R4hQ+PZilOodaDO+56If7CiouBlEI= MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2023 21:35:50 +0100 From: indieterminacy To: Joshua Branson Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= , Maxim Cournoyer , guix-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: GNU Guix 1.4.0 released In-Reply-To: <87sfgrmpcw.fsf@dismail.de> References: <87359beahn.fsf@gnu.org> <875ydx8qk0.fsf@gmail.com> <874jt89e9e.fsf@gnu.org> <83cc454a4b45e59cda4606cb4f313282@libre.brussels> <87sfgrmpcw.fsf@dismail.de> Message-ID: X-Sender: indieterminacy@libre.brussels Organization: Icebreaker Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received-SPF: pass client-ip=144.76.234.112; envelope-from=indieterminacy@libre.brussels; helo=libre.brussels X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1672778189; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=MU2aOjrwH+0MQyVTTmg0kHXUOCJ34TTWQmuuz6TUyCU=; b=P9xxvSfUeD86iQA5GOlnZDXcbDNWWJ/Y7rdTTAfmQE0J0eHyH8cbGvlDJdixYCJS7JLkD6 4jesfLBk11hGcCvwpmnWl2NnD6cv0j2bvwPLOWw8SAXx48wB6b0oJwZN4hJLFjUBrHQo4p Efo1x6I2gvnKIfIuaIXMRolFTg1eXsHmUxbpt99sFVe/XnFy9k7mJgg8hZWCEJWeBovXgr c/1licx/GFGbNT9A9+Pqt4wtnHMUrD1wOBtzW4wuFrnkg7hcaInt2HoKxqiNQH7VT/Fy9d W9vxTLgigv8fhf6wxZ+A7zcmonQYffMcKRU3Qs/vb3qw7bLqiBJP3+XNgYpP+w== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=libre.brussels header.s=mail header.b=PGmbPabF; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=libre.brussels ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1672778189; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=MArlTW//d129nwOQcyrLcV61bKPe+g9AQSripmuY9bf1Byrdaj1EPqvA14U/GQtB2mWd9d FyrSISCNAAouBcg6jT9SeMlxC71rWU6PZYfHfdzHPhqDmyorZfRLFMVSMFnIhGyj2Nwvt9 l2foois7hYt+HeqH+7iPRGvoNKZNmoFYcWnI1+UpGlLzJpArFeYhaSYr7haOZg6VRNIAmw 8Wu3IkE8nz6m6tZUwzZ8k1TNwUkf6DIyJrS8K8UXeyTf1CP5FQqNZwQI03x/L/4ApvREbj uJC0airmJkq01BohOTo6O5bvg1dtnDWRO+oOn5ehT5V39rVTvRl9dFc2W0zyPQ== X-Spam-Score: -4.76 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 5D7E091DD Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=libre.brussels header.s=mail header.b=PGmbPabF; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=libre.brussels X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -4.76 X-TUID: 06WEc27TMU03 On 03-01-2023 19:42, Joshua Branson wrote: > indieterminacy writes: > >> On 03-01-2023 10:08, Ludovic Courtès wrote: >>> Hi! >>> Maxim Cournoyer skribis: >>> >>>> Congrats, and yay! It's a hell of a release! :-) Let's try to make >>>> more >>>> punctual ones from now on, and also try to lower the amount of >>>> manual >>>> labor producing one incurs (by streamlining the process), as >>>> speaking >>>> for me, this was one of the reasons I kept putting it back. >>> Definitely, let’s see how we can make the process smoother. >>> In my experience though, a lot of the work is coordination: keeping >>> track of what needs to be done, open bugs, calling for testing, etc. >>> I think we should start thinking about the next release, forming a >>> small release team, and I’ll be happy to mentor! >>> Thanks, >>> Ludo’. >> >> Out of curiosity, have you ever approached developing a release from >> the >> perspective of doing documentation first? >> >> For example, test driven approaches like BDD or TDD have allowed the >> expectations and examples to be worked out first and the the >> implementation >> built to form it. >> >> More practically, theres a recent thread concerning different >> approaches and >> priorities concerning syntaxes. Also, if during 1.5 there were >> articulations >> regarding how existing behaviour does not conform with desired >> behaviour then it >> may become easier to divide up tasks into chunks for teams or >> individuals to >> work on. >> >> With idealised documentation in place this could provide a point of >> motivation >> for developers and avoid any fatigue once the solution is in place as >> the >> /drudgery/ of explaining how things work and how they can be used had >> been >> worked out in advance. > > What areas does guix need more documentation? To answer that question > for myself, I might say more gexp examples. Though unmatched-paren is > working on a series of blog posts to dive really deep into that topic. > Over the years in general (ie for whatevever in programming), I tend to find documentation examples to provide the easiest way of explaining things and this can create shortcomings as creating or maintenan FWIW, I always need multiple examples for any programming domain but this was not the point I was trying to make. (in any case I learn systems through breaking them, it tends to give me a better understanding of systems). For an idea about documenting before a project, it may be good to create diagrams, as some (like myself) are visually orientated. Not only can it be a visual assistance, it can also aid recall. In terms of a project, this may widen the talent pool and improve alignment. >> In any case, while I cannot comment on the tactics within the OpenBSD >> community >> I always considered it a noble thing that no improvements we put into >> their OS >> until the features were correctly documented. >> > > While OpenBSD does a pretty good job of documenting everything, I would > also chime in and say that Guix does a fantastic job of translating the > existing documentation into other languages. What do we have > documentation in English, German, French, and significant parts in > Russian and some asian languages. That's pretty stellar! > Yes, indeed! Seeing this talk in Paris made it very clear how much this is being treated seriously. https://10years.guix.gnu.org/program/#let-s-translate-guix-together- Thanks for making this point. Perhaps some people from different language communities require assistance in order to build next generation Guix functionality. It may be worth lowering the cost of them articulating their needs, including which section within the documentation requires focus for a specific language. >> >> Thanks everybody with your work on 1.4.0 ! -- Jonathan McHugh indieterminacy@libre.brussels