From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp11.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id 8H3NNwPMqmJzuQAAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2022 08:21:55 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp11.migadu.com with LMTPS id YBO5NwPMqmJHCgEA9RJhRA (envelope-from ) for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2022 08:21:55 +0200 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9DD812D900 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2022 08:21:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:52000 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o1it8-0007Lj-N6 for larch@yhetil.org; Thu, 16 Jun 2022 02:21:54 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:40444) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o1isr-0007La-H6 for guix-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 16 Jun 2022 02:21:37 -0400 Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com ([64.147.123.19]:37371) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o1iso-0001L0-Ss for guix-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 16 Jun 2022 02:21:37 -0400 Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id C94DB3200B11; Thu, 16 Jun 2022 02:21:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 16 Jun 2022 02:21:33 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= philipmcgrath.com; h=cc:cc:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:date:date:from:from:in-reply-to:message-id :mime-version:reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to; s=fm2; t= 1655360492; x=1655446892; bh=6gOc5orzns036ljOVP/h8ZR1VQnXhQaDA+e SsMbbA5g=; b=G1mNl/z/ng2D5rRiRIIVWO3u/BEPjDFNUeVSUemmmGZH+zgMY1Q b5fSO1yl8104UgHsEt5ekFlJyRf4JPyt3OPc3fTyigoKAZcX5orRk/gpK7/PrGO4 b+q0wG3N6dXZJ9nraBGIa5kRXep+Xdc1RA7a+J3SZUSNnU8A2e01yWcWySzuJlhf 9PU0isNyE4gSXQegei7pvDsr/pIYtXL4mfYps7eksTcj9yLQYGceEHkJABERn4AV 7Guzj6Ipn/opAWMuQoGwC9Kt3xXJWg+vr7LTbwUyKSlTwNlQb3LvnHScViLCeqkz dU5q0fiCroc57aKNVkqoq0Or6NCmQelAQuw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:date:date:feedback-id:feedback-id:from:from :in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:sender:subject :subject:to:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; t=1655360492; x=1655446892; bh=6gOc5orzns036 ljOVP/h8ZR1VQnXhQaDA+eSsMbbA5g=; b=gjnDa4Q8nxu2B6tKbq7bQC6gyRSer Y5xsVeWSWVefNRqzjpnMH17sdYpCzfP7kaWhA0LP3cersA9SwexwpquCenjjGUv8 JJWderSfMJ7YKRFEc6H2VavjvZv20mY44StBhMP8d4icqsGeHdY/FDDvhM2c5JVD ydl/KRDElF24532Lpz/L/NnqfydBT45OzFP7ItDT++VWQFAcODvAgUi/jGUUeDYu Avd+n+aHXs2HgikhX7FRRdGrGBFgIyF3438k0/n2/zgP3tcfx8dTvI0beRvuWNjW ZDO3HgN2ovCgD2SsDL28Bq3lq74KVZFmcomkTgQOW1eVUlvkzA+zmk1+A== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvfedruddvvddguddthecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmd enucfjughrpefkffggfgfhufevvfgtgfesthejredttdefjeenucfhrhhomheprfhhihhl ihhpucfotgfirhgrthhhuceophhhihhlihhpsehphhhilhhiphhmtghgrhgrthhhrdgtoh hmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeejkefghfejleduuedtuedtveekudekieetkeeuieev feehfeefffeltdefhedttdenucffohhmrghinhepghhnuhdrohhrghdpshhpugigrdhorh hgnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepphhh ihhlihhpsehphhhilhhiphhmtghgrhgrthhhrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i2b1146f3:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 16 Jun 2022 02:21:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2022 02:21:30 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.9.1 Content-Language: en-US From: Philip McGrath Subject: FSDG-compatibility of APSL-2.0 Cc: Maxime Devos , "(" To: Guix Devel Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received-SPF: pass client-ip=64.147.123.19; envelope-from=philip@philipmcgrath.com; helo=wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-To: larch@yhetil.org X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1655360515; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=6gOc5orzns036ljOVP/h8ZR1VQnXhQaDA+eSsMbbA5g=; b=EvnfuJcnSZL/Z7Q6lWi1Tk06sCV/hK6gxv26jcTCkJvLB5ad7rMZy+7T+tT5F8uZabmVjI PlXmbJUdaIsFlqAlfZh1alQ8B/wsVqP3K9XegRrgCqbxkURwcscCoIVnUjKnuc3BoBtn33 ipe/gqea5lL7gg7nFVIzvMDX6zDh38k2ME5FvGF5Bl8ymxMmO5EvLKfaAcpuPuZaW0+FZJ QNZyX4GUhsnJTIunYRFAmIRimGS4UGN8FUGMnsdH3bD67pgxbDRXeiR/oltF2ykPigyjfl 5hRYiT6coqdIto5K4httdrTUJHC8wxPrvpOHgNgjCVl5LvXW1wlpxkx13qO71g== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1655360515; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=Zm1MAHYujZn0WCW+aC6UoffWBceGX4hGZ4NoWVRQ/SngHDIevg1pL99b7waxxjI6Doam4l 7cbWZdj810EhqR9s4270LuuGOHpJZkaEmrDYIsgZsC7I8f5EfQwLQ2ABDfjNwH4evo3Qj2 EcGN5yFUeTK7cjoAlJXuHBeuWSKDak7P/kGq8/KAmT8okipGKlMlhOzyi+JjqbKusX/yFg ZnRG+zKUmgyXKeWC8INJ7X74yBE/efg6g3+jvNaMsjf+NQMBWlkHUJF15Ydj3rgo2/b0/X 2a6wqTa44oN47G3YEf/A243IUsyrxAXBDwovrEn1J47Ria+Qc/63OS/AQbsu+g== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=philipmcgrath.com header.s=fm2 header.b="G1mNl/z/"; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=messagingengine.com header.s=fm2 header.b=gjnDa4Q8; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: 0.41 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=philipmcgrath.com header.s=fm2 header.b="G1mNl/z/"; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=messagingengine.com header.s=fm2 header.b=gjnDa4Q8; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 9DD812D900 X-Spam-Score: 0.41 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: T86wNFYGGL1Z Hi Guix, Is the Apple Public Source License 2.0 (APSL-2.0 [1]) a free license according to Guix's standards? In , I sent a patch adding a package under this license, and Maxime Devos pointed out this choice-of-forum provision, which I agree is quite one-sided: > 13.6 Dispute Resolution. Any litigation or other dispute resolution > between You and Apple relating to this License shall take place in the > Northern District of California, and You and Apple hereby consent to > the personal jurisdiction of, and venue in, the state and federal > courts within that District with respect to this License. The > application of the United Nations Convention on Contracts for the > International Sale of Goods is expressly excluded. We thought this list was a better place for any discussion of Guix's policy that needs to happen. As I understand it, Guix's current policy is the Free System Distribution Guidelines published at [2], which links to [3] for its definition of "free license". That definition says (at [4]), "It is acceptable for a free license to specify which jurisdiction's law applies, or where litigation must be done, or both." The revision notes [5] say that paragraph was added in version 1.129, from 2012, but that "this was always our policy". The FSF has issued an opinion [6] that APSL-2.0 is a free software license: they say that "Apple's lawyers worked with the FSF to produce a license that would qualify" (after problems with earlier versions of the license). Is this satisfactory for Guix? Or does Guix want to forbid such choice-of-forum provisions? In the latter case `apsl2`, and maybe other definitions, presumable would need to be removed from `(guix licenses)`. My personal view: I wouldn't recommend using this license: indeed, even Apple seems to have moved away from it for newer projects (often to Apache-2.0). If established guidelines *hadn't* allowed this kind of one-sided choice-of-forum provision, I wouldn't have found it particularly surprising. I think there are important community governance questions around how questions like this ought to be answered (basically, I agree with [7]). Still, I'm in favor of the status quo. I think fragmentation over license policies has a significant cost for the community, and this does not seem to be sufficiently problematic to be worth a schism. I'm not a lawyer, so take this paragraph lease seriously, but I also think the concrete impact is less than it might first seem. We accept choice-of-forum provisions like the one in MPL-2.0 ("Any litigation relating to this License may be brought only in the courts of a jurisdiction where the defendant maintains its principal place of business and such litigation shall be governed by laws of that jurisdiction, without reference to its conflict-of-law provisions.") [8] which would require you to sue Apple in California. We also accept licenses like the GPL that don't have any choice-of-forum provisions: the law of "personal jurisdiction" and venue is complex, but I would not be shocked if Apple could sue you in California in this case. My impression is that it would be very difficult to require something like a "freedom not to litigate in California" (especially so for all possible values of "California") without rejecting many currently-accepted licenses. -Philip [1]: https://spdx.org/licenses/APSL-2.0.html [2]: https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-system-distribution-guidelines.html [3]: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html [4]: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html#legal-details [5]: https://web.cvs.savannah.gnu.org/viewvc/www/www/philosophy/free-sw.html?r1=1.128&r2=1.129 [6]: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/apsl.html [7]: https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-project/ [8]: https://spdx.org/licenses/MPL-2.0.html