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Sat, 26 Oct 2024 14:49:14 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=elenq.tech; s=soverin1; t=1729954155; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:autocrypt:autocrypt; bh=96U38ZPPd0nLj3qikoeyMExGvnyeHmQ9E6UVyJ1ZVD8=; b=l6m6qTcTvwHsYVe7V1Lilr3WozOzkgfdEp7SWbqvL7DY7qHULAN7HfmlB0/IpyIwfM/CCm B61dRr/YFcnIQmSrMbV7Y0fXl8a3aiuroZ1781pmS4yggN+gMfgdKI62gPiHt6z4VVaoRR 7VeZlWeHu25FF3V/Qnw+7Hz32aebcpaQe6jS8k3IfHdUGxQg7EaMNDXSrDzohWXQAkEeb1 1ijFQTsC71BpQV+hF3uNrqXDZ6bKmCrWlTyXTBEXUtUODBqihOlQcwbjZ2cokBy2qrWdTF 7ZAQjLXwQ0h5QVWoul7bHhbBceT4SM/jukHvvrSOUzR6C5qgn2oOZLa8V7xcGw== Message-ID: Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2024 16:49:13 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Guix (and Guile's) promise, and how to (hopefully) get there To: Christine Lemmer-Webber , "Thompson, David" Cc: guix-devel@gnu.org References: <6daee7b4-a5d6-4f80-bbfa-995e65e17ae0@elenq.tech> <87r083ht4p.fsf@dustycloud.org> Content-Language: en-US, es-ES, eu From: Ekaitz Zarraga Autocrypt: addr=ekaitz@elenq.tech; 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charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spampanel-Class: ham Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a10:de80:1:4091:b9e9:221e:0:1; envelope-from=ekaitz@elenq.tech; helo=dane.soverin.net X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -1.09 X-Spam-Score: -1.09 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 0D13766148 X-Migadu-Scanner: mx12.migadu.com X-TUID: GookPjgYeZju Hi Christine, I think you very well said here. My original discussion wanted to tackle several points, some of them you very well mention here: - There's already people getting paid for working on Guix, and that is not a problem at the moment but we could do it better. - If there's any commercial application for Guix that would be an interesting source of energy (people and money). Maybe some people from the community could start that. EXTRA: maybe the Guix Foundation could offer some of that! They have machines, they collect money for Guix stuff, they have the social structure, they are legally registered and they can get payments. That could be an interesting source of income, combined with selling the very cool stickers they sell. - Governance is important, and we are in a position where there's no governance because we all are too cautious about it, to the point nothing is really done. - We all are looking to Ludovic to be our leader here, and he factually is. Probably the best one we could have. There are some points I think you miss here though, and I think they are important. - In a project like Guix money is not only important, but structural. We are not just software. We have many machines running (sometimes poorly), and I don't like to talk too much but a big part of it as far as I know is running in somebody's basement. That person has been in the border of a burnout for long, as long as I know. I don't want to push anyone to air details about their personal economy but that thing is expensive, and *I*, Ekaitz, don't feel comfortable having people doing things they don't want to just because they feel some moral obligation to the project. As I said, in the original thread: we have been asking for too much from some people, for too long. - This comes to Ludovic too. I wouldn't like to be in his position because there's pressure on him. It's too easy for people to point to him and say: "Ludo, what should we do? Ludo, you are the leader! We'll follow you". Again, we are asking too much from some people. Instead, I advocate for sharing the load. I'm a small guy, I can't lift a lot of weight, but with some responsibility I think I could help. I didn't do much in the last years, but I think it was honest, and that's what I believe we should do more. About GNU, the FSF and so on, I don't think we should drive our decisions out of _image_ or _reputation_. There should be only one criterium to follow in the current situation we have: is it useful for us or not. I don't think image really matters. Being brutally honest here, if any of that mattered we all would be wearing a suit in the Guix Days and FOSDEM, and probably we would be afraid to come out as we really are. That's not what I saw when I was there. I try to be human, and that's what triggered all this conversation. I'm the less corporate friendly guy you could ever find but I do care about people: those who feel helpless and those who feel they have to help, even if they are tired. I think we need a proper structure, or at least make the structure obvious. I shared this problem in the Guix Days: we have a social structure, but it's not explicit. We have all these implicit rules of this person and this other one and who should you ask for something and who not, but that's really hard to grasp if you come from the outside. This whole thing looks like an uncoordinated mess, but that's not what we are. We are functioning set of humans, that work together extremely well taking in account the low effort we put on the coordination. I don't want to change that, I think it's marvelous, but I think we could do more with less, without burning down people in the process. So, I focused the thing on the money not because I think we should make this more corporate or anything, but because the only people who don't care about the money is those who have it. I care about those who don't have it, and want to make this thing great, and I care about those who are running out of it, just for keeping this thing from falling apart. So governance and all that, yes, we should solve that, but I don't want to that conversation to be so long and so ineffective we don't pay attention to the actual goal: giving a hands to our friends that might be struggling a little bit now while we are talking. So, in summary. You bring interesting ideas to the table, and I'm more than happy to discuss them, and take part in some. But I'm more for action in the short term, and I have questions that might help to trace a path to follow: - Do we need independent funding so we can pay for our machines and maintenance? - Is the Guix Foundation the way to do it? - Does GNU, or the FSF, have some role on that? - Can we improve anything relieving weight from the shoulders of some people instead of putting even more on them? - Would having more committers help relieve some of the weight? - If so, should we propose commit access to people, instead of waiting them to propose themselves? - Should we ease the process of becoming a committer? What do you think?