From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp0.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:403:58f0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms13.migadu.com with LMTPS id eDMmEEZMdWZdOAAAqHPOHw:P1 (envelope-from ) for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2024 09:47:50 +0000 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:403:58f0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp0.migadu.com with LMTPS id eDMmEEZMdWZdOAAAqHPOHw (envelope-from ) for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2024 11:47:50 +0200 X-Envelope-To: larch@yhetil.org Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1718963270; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post; bh=+fhnuvH3lvW3a6k+khE3PSgM0O77d/W3DBwKkN2piHg=; b=Zko8/8Gh3a+MsF5mLafvFzNaz0oOYHphhV9g8nG086mn2iF0wPu1tGKq9tKWLzdRz8TPgx FInfl0KWCdphZn9yoIQtm74EgDq6RbMKulWR25AEaMRyHrhsr+aJrp9ObS1fOksYgJEqoo p/DPlkUbjmfoPElW2zivaHnkjoT1dxbWTRWe1AyG+j83uTdPIzRvEQJcj544y+B69Bbb4z P9n2D8JeXZ7NzDT4bO4VOBSwgz1YA+fZMjPJWR/XJ3QY4T5wgHD/eeG4OJuhc/YUkI7fV1 CxItxMV9XgecU8/od8oZaPQdv5Q7f22uvOTfmSDj0W0W4CiPaRkeem4ltYzRFw== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1718963270; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=QKuWUDAhVATPsvBiLKoyuh+RhoKyiTyHZi5rk3rBlQiKQ3Yc4KT/F0mzoWp5Hav16IBNAS ETbw7ExDdM1SJJYXVNHrvZ1rgNrCGem/y/qpdf4puNCLQroo3d3/DFFmN1+6zoo38nelnB 92ZvckUXB8vuNCYvsCFrIo0I5PEFOhBnhWDk0z7c0puM/NXTPO57fe0EfS1lgZ68Fpzo3g lUJW7dU0TzaM6/qv9M+QUtAQe8PL296bKUNShdGhV+Ax4kOHznei4KIFbq9OVLTnjKfpBg AaMzUTewvpAPcaPvBg8zFsbVc2CuL4fNZkauyXHotegGlTKgKOmsvRvhyhEDTQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DE3CA76ED5 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2024 11:47:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sKarL-0007aA-Qi; Fri, 21 Jun 2024 05:47:07 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sKarJ-0007ZP-FZ for guix-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 21 Jun 2024 05:47:05 -0400 Received: from hera.aquilenet.fr ([2a0c:e300::1]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sKarH-0001df-81 for guix-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 21 Jun 2024 05:47:05 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hera.aquilenet.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8E45278; Fri, 21 Jun 2024 11:46:58 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at hera.aquilenet.fr Received: from hera.aquilenet.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (hera.aquilenet.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CwGx3jqKWMdv; Fri, 21 Jun 2024 11:46:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from jurong (unknown [IPv6:2001:861:c4:f2f0::c64]) by hera.aquilenet.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D9245B4; Fri, 21 Jun 2024 11:46:57 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2024 11:46:56 +0200 From: Andreas Enge To: MSavoritias Cc: guix-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: About SWH, let avoid the wrong discussion Message-ID: References: <20240618113717.4a6bad2b@fannys.me> <87msnebsfd.fsf@gmail.com> <20240621121213.419da774@fannys.me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20240621121213.419da774@fannys.me> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a0c:e300::1; envelope-from=andreas@enge.fr; helo=hera.aquilenet.fr X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -2.86 X-Spam-Score: -2.86 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: DE3CA76ED5 X-Migadu-Scanner: mx11.migadu.com X-TUID: IU3OHXZCH9Lo Am Fri, Jun 21, 2024 at 12:12:13PM +0300 schrieb MSavoritias: > and as I mention in my first email I want to apply social pressure and make it clear to package authors what is happening so we can move to an opt-in model. Well, the opt-in model is in place: As soon as I put my code under a free license on the Internet, I opt in for it to be harvested by SWH (and anybody else, including non-friendly companies and state actors). Now the code may not be found by SWH, and the moment someone makes a Guix package out of it and adds it to the Guix main channel, SWH will find and archive it; but the opt-in has happened before at the moment I put the code online with its license. Maybe I misunderstood to what you want to apply the term "opt-in" (after reading your other message in which you use the term, this seems to be the case). If it is to source code of packages being used for AI training, there is actually no need to have a separate opt-in. Either it is legal under your license (and then you have effectively opted in), or it is illegal (in which case explicit opt-in already is a requirement). Am Fri, Jun 21, 2024 at 11:14:18AM +0300 schrieb MSavoritias: > Aside from that even Guix uploading all code from the packages to > SWH that basically feeds it to a LLM model is indeed not honoring consent of the author of the package. Guix does not upload code to SWH. It gives them a pointer to a public git repository that SWH then harvests or not according to their rules (see my reply to Dale yesterday). These are not the same things at all. Whether or not one agrees with the SWH policy on LLM training (and I have not looked at it well enough to form my opinion), I do not think there is anything we should change at the level of the Guix project. Maybe SWH should put into place an opt-in procedure for feeding LLM; but I do not think we in Guix should put into place an opt-in procedure for informing SWH of the source code we package. (Which would be completely ineffective anyway: One single person in the world would be enough to run the code in "guix lint -c archival" on all Guix packages in all channels they have access to. For instance, SWH themselves.) Andreas