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Tue, 5 Sep 2023 22:04:15 +0000 (UTC) Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2023 00:04:15 +0200 From: wolf To: Liliana Marie Prikler Cc: "(" , Katherine Cox-Buday , Simon Tournier , Maxim Cournoyer , Saku Laesvuori , Attila Lendvai , Andreas Enge , guix-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? Message-ID: Mail-Followup-To: Liliana Marie Prikler , "(" , Katherine Cox-Buday , Simon Tournier , Maxim Cournoyer , Saku Laesvuori , Attila Lendvai , Andreas Enge , guix-devel@gnu.org References: <20230827135726.y33t55w4cvq6zsvb@X-kone> <874jkift8v.fsf@gmail.com> <867cp4sj7k.fsf@gmail.com> <38242808-2f06-4674-3842-aea1a5378d05@gmail.com> <87a5u0o3z2.fsf@disroot.org> <3b274703acaf446ec678e96c9d875c5d6b1a3e17.camel@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="k+HSuVoFXZUYXWNP" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3b274703acaf446ec678e96c9d875c5d6b1a3e17.camel@gmail.com> Received-SPF: none client-ip=37.205.8.62; envelope-from=ws@wolfsnet.cz; helo=wolfsden.cz X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 6B26F3994B X-Migadu-Scanner: mx1.migadu.com X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -8.91 X-Spam-Score: -8.91 X-TUID: /AI+NVrvpQgp --k+HSuVoFXZUYXWNP Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023-09-05 22:43:04 +0200, Liliana Marie Prikler wrote: > Am Dienstag, dem 05.09.2023 um 19:40 +0100 schrieb (: > > Liliana Marie Prikler writes: > > > Uhm, we have snippets? > >=20 > > Well, those are exclusive to Emacs :)=C2=A0 And without regard to /that/ > > issue, I do think that there's a problem if the commit format is so > > complex that it's not trivial for anyone new to the project to write > > them out manually. > By definition, no amount of typing is non-trivial, safe for the empty > amount, which good luck trying to commit your changes by pure mouse > movements, I guess? >=20 > Now, if you excuse my French, I think the problem isn't really as much > that people struggle to type out the perfect ChangeLog on the first > try, which also makes it odd to request a linter. Bear in mind that > committers will sign off anything that appears convincing enough, even > if there are smaller mistakes in the message. Trust me, I've been > there and seen that; and also done it myself. >=20 > Instead, we have seen in this thread appeals to age, appeals to > perceived lack of personal benefit, and now appeals to typing effort, > none of which really make that great of an argument against the > ChangeLog style, especially when they come in combination with a > refusal to make use of already provided tools. I went through the snippets, and through the GNU documentation[0] and I am = still not clear on how exactly should the commit message for a change in =2Edir-locals.el look like. Maybe I did miss some tools or documentation? The "you can check the commit history for example" advice from the 22.6 pag= e of documentations gives me 4 different styles in last 4 commits. Ok, just jok= ing, 3 styles, the 4th is a typo (`* .dir-localsl.el: Add ...'). 0: https://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/html_node/Change-Logs.html > I think we're starting to see the moving of the goal post as the actual g= ame > here.=C2=A0 >=20 > Maybe it's time to take a step back and instead of asking =E2=80=9CHow ca= n we > decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors?=E2=80=9D, we should per= haps > ask =E2=80=9CFor which contributors do we want to/can we decrease the cog= nitive > overhead?=E2=80=9D While I do risk taking this slightly more off topic, I personally am more interested in what can be done to help the committers, not contributors. My biggest grievance with trying to contribute is not the process nor the tool= s, but the lack of reviews. Having a patch sitting there without any reaction= nor feedback is frustrating. Do you see any process/tooling changes that could= help on this front, even if they would make life harder for the contributors? > We have drifted much from the original post that discussed moms with full= -time > jobs, who struggle to do =E2=80=9Cdifficult=E2=80=9D tasks (simplified wo= rding; may change the > meaning of the OP a little). Now, I personally struggle to see how your > personal preference for communication media, commit message style, and ot= her > things that were discussed in any of the preceding threads actually corre= late > with being a parent. However, I do know that with its 150 million users,= most > people of the world don't have a Github account. Being one of the 4 bill= ion > email users out there is a comparably low barrier of entry imho. So, who= se > cognitive overhead do you want to reduce (besides the obvious "my own", w= hich > everyone always tries)? > W. --=20 There are only two hard things in Computer Science: cache invalidation, naming things and off-by-one errors. --k+HSuVoFXZUYXWNP Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEt4NJs4wUfTYpiGikL7/ufbZ/wakFAmT3pd8ACgkQL7/ufbZ/ wan3HA/+PgVB5N3dLLa6tUZA1ZDEdYuKE1b/5BC6ubOE2YSZS9JuCY1wpEgC8skS 9nA8yQ7CZevy14Vf8grmmWarpgdM81CEZbxoM7QOeyyQQUaQlWhZp7d3Yn16ZoLI xhnKYVll6+gXylCX10TpyaI2CR0UWJ+FVraIz2K2GhHZNRKEDx+iM7x21Usf/MAF ga+yJD+Qn+as5AdmW8YXGqZm1mI1f2qlSN1v9DKN6YyZhrtPyPCuDm4gNxafeNY5 7Lq6Y4dDA1Y6ba80ggz0nWwkor/IlooB/Z7/eBlFhR279oWBGSRpbY6AjN5dEuHq 6JpoO5hn/LBK0MhlybcvQoBOEI55/adAW8wo8VXaOxTFZKqh1p6/mkaKtItGkfrd busy3U3vrvIbdVruoUESjCBAnvhSzt8X/pTvAmBfSn8pKUSeckonI5Baupv+XA3N ghCe/Dcm//4khJIGlhI1KX9zUqTs1Va4ZkuZc9NuF/Ygs2oQ0GRSqrZt8LDfpGQa um7xreLG3srNI5NJsSvbn6rh+Bn+1/87XU/wRjre63DI4nLs1xl76TrZVm2AvtCK SogPpPRL9Y9kXQ0tddQ9ET9cbQ9VZWu07brGi6HNCsQH60A+6xX4ZPLEzt0rzFdY +jn31ZQ1EkCVIewxSjGHepAVkr32I7eO+KezvA/4mrLWf/GHYjA= =mktY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --k+HSuVoFXZUYXWNP--