From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp1 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms11 with LMTPS id 22M6B/ivDmBQHwAA0tVLHw (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 25 Jan 2021 11:48:08 +0000 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp1 with LMTPS id oMaRAvivDmDSWwAAbx9fmQ (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 25 Jan 2021 11:48:08 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5FDB694053A for ; Mon, 25 Jan 2021 11:48:06 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([::1]:54432 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l40Ll-0001QI-4A for larch@yhetil.org; Mon, 25 Jan 2021 06:48:05 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:44198) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l40L2-0001O4-FK for guix-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 25 Jan 2021 06:47:21 -0500 Received: from mout-p-201.mailbox.org ([80.241.56.171]:25302) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_CHACHA20_POLY1305:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l40Kv-0008Pa-ST for guix-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 25 Jan 2021 06:47:19 -0500 Received: from smtp2.mailbox.org (smtp2.mailbox.org [IPv6:2001:67c:2050:105:465:1:2:0]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-384) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mout-p-201.mailbox.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4DPSlJ1trJzQlZ1; Mon, 25 Jan 2021 12:47:08 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at heinlein-support.de DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=6xq.net; s=MBO0001; t=1611575226; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=d2IuktrBSvJRRoAg5uREQNyWSltMt/8+E7WiG3JWqlM=; b=cJJciKEwV03DIkdhlGuMdsPvywQvfpFml3ab9H1OHteaXc5Iyy5Yw2iE+K+5RFxlzNdW91 e1OjTD6Z3VMihWuLlQiHceSYMuIIsCqEO+Lk+mDXwwOcDr6ACTtO9qtyq0Yss8d7BttNeJ 2AOtJ+8kIl/5XwoFYD5NRX2/PqqJRhqMFzi1r+RafdImA/SLT6aLaOoINkvOkOUoa1ovgY Kdcdx9633qi8JFR86IfrJfS/Th6lr5dJoa+nwks8m2CZgW8VvDadjtRppguP+KQ3Xf43lq jmj4m0DQG6zlsq9db5cT2mQ2iNhx5uKlAucCvGD2KVna4GO4XaoMA1AATRvy9A== Received: from smtp2.mailbox.org ([80.241.60.241]) by spamfilter02.heinlein-hosting.de (spamfilter02.heinlein-hosting.de [80.241.56.116]) (amavisd-new, port 10030) with ESMTP id 0IgtjM9lzM5o; Mon, 25 Jan 2021 12:47:05 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2021 12:47:03 +0100 From: Lars-Dominik Braun To: Ryan Prior Subject: Re: Questions regarding Python packaging Message-ID: References: <7032ec8d7a89cfead7b12547e33ad83c3fee7dc6@hey.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <7032ec8d7a89cfead7b12547e33ad83c3fee7dc6@hey.com> X-MBO-SPAM-Probability: X-Rspamd-Score: -3.91 / 15.00 / 15.00 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 41C0B17D9 X-Rspamd-UID: 6fa362 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=80.241.56.171; envelope-from=lars@6xq.net; helo=mout-p-201.mailbox.org X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -3.05 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=6xq.net header.s=MBO0001 header.b=cJJciKEw; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=6xq.net; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 5FDB694053A X-Spam-Score: -3.05 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: sRoMY+KpaWI7 Hi Ryan, > I think if we do that then Python will need a treatment similar to GCC, > where we don't expose the package and instead offer a compound package > (could be called "python-toolchain" or just "python") which includes pip > and setuptools. The last decades of python packaging have trained people > that when you install python you get pip and setuptools as well, I think > we should not try to be too clever and violate that assumption. this change is actually more about moving forward and adding PEP 517 support to python-build-system. Being able to demote setuptools and pip to ordinary packages is merely a side-effect, because they’re not essential any more. Your mail seems to be incomplete, it stopped after: > Also, for what it's worth, we already have python-minimal which doesn't > have pip, and it's only   Cheers, Lars