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Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: Feedback-ID: 28384833:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.70.43.17; envelope-from=attila@lendvai.name; helo=mail-4317.proton.ch X-Spam_score_int: -30 X-Spam_score: -3.1 X-Spam_bar: --- X-Spam_report: (-3.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=-1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Scanner: mx2.migadu.com X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -6.66 X-Spam-Score: -6.66 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 363623D2D3 X-TUID: 3bsLAzXNCYJU > > until needed (rarely). the email based model is just a flat list of > > messages that includes all the past mistakes, and the by now > > irrelevant versions. > > What the? If anything, emails are like a tree and discussions in most > forges are a single long list that's rarely well organized. Virtually not sure how most people consume their emails nowadays, but for me it's one= flat list per thread, in a browser (i.e. it's not a tree). and i haven't used any forges where there's not at least a flat timeline pe= r PR. i used to use emacs for emails for a while, but i stopped. the learning cur= ve was too steep, and documentation was sparse, for little perceived benefi= t. at one point i noticed that it was saving unencrypted drafts of encrypte= d threads into my online mail account, and i decided to abandon it. now i rely on webmail with Edit in Emacs browser extension. it's good enoug= h for everything i do, except maybe for contributing to Guix. > every mail client supports threads, whereas a certain one of the more > popular forges still refuses to do so. Hiding obsolete versions of a > pull request is in practice implemented either by pushing more commits > on top of the existing one, often with dubious commit messages or by > force-pushing a branch, neither of which is an acceptable solution for > Guix. are you by any chance mixing the standards that we set out for the Guix rep= o, with the means of communication while a patchset is being forged into me= rgeable quality? and even if you are not, we could simply add an entry to the requirement li= st that the commit history of a PR must be retained even when a PR is force= -pushed. it's not that emails are inherently superior. > Other implicit assumptions include that people will be happy to switch > for the particular fork you've chosen (they won't) and will not demand > $new_hot_thing within the next five years (they likely will, just look my implicit assumption is that a project is ready to switch communication t= echnologies every few years, *if* it's justified. and all i'm trying to ach= ieve here is to move the discussion away from email-is-superior-period, to = look at what requiremenets we have and what tools satisfy them, if any. > at the ChatGPT-related stuff that has been submitted). There sadly is > no pleasing everyone here and unless these tools are incredibly simple > to maintain, the utilitarian approach of least misery leads you to > plain email. but is a least-misery model appropriate here? how do you even account for t= he contributions that could have happened in a different environment, but d= id not happen? similarly, e.g. demanding a dated ChangeLog format for commit messages has = a filtering effect on who will contribute, and then who will stick around. = most engineers have a hard time jumping through hoops that they find pointl= ess (git automatically encodes that information), and i'd suggest consideri= ng what the effect are of such rules on Guix as an emergent order. what makes it even more tricky is that it's a self-perpetuating meme, becau= se the more such conservative policies are enforced, the fewer people will = stick around who would advocate for change. yes, the balance between change and conservatism is tricky, but i think we = have moved on from CVS long enough ago to e.g. abandon the ChangeLog format= ... (or alternatively, i'm blind to the use-cases that it is crucial for). --=20 =E2=80=A2 attila lendvai =E2=80=A2 PGP: 963F 5D5F 45C7 DFCD 0A39 -- =E2=80=9CI sincerely believe that banking establishments are more dangerous= than standing armies, and that the principle of spending money to be paid = by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a lar= ge scale.=E2=80=9D =09=E2=80=94 Thomas Jefferson (1743=E2=80=931826)