From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp12.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id GE/zLHG53mFdeQEAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2022 12:20:17 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp12.migadu.com with LMTPS id 6LuMKXG53mEo4AAAauVa8A (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2022 12:20:17 +0100 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6346618698 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2022 12:20:17 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1]:57446 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n7bfs-0007AC-Hr for larch@yhetil.org; Wed, 12 Jan 2022 06:20:16 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:53528) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n7bfL-0007A4-Rz for guix-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 12 Jan 2022 06:19:44 -0500 Received: from mail-0201.mail-europe.com ([51.77.79.158]:55327) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n7bfI-0001tq-70 for guix-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 12 Jan 2022 06:19:43 -0500 Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2022 11:19:31 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lendvai.name; s=protonmail3; t=1641986374; bh=bcSZpTJ+XHSKoecWZKbvzJspGqZrX/crJjN0s6GxiaA=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Reply-To:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To: References:From:To:Cc; b=n/g8z+6qrWAvhz997USWdsqTcWBksT/+dP6fuE3cOJm88/xQ79YCgRNE8yxJ40rPf /biY/amKmBNF5Ed/rvQOkwz5LN4UBYBXd0mN4NZkHu4hBxoJWOa51wr6TyYZ9yuSCo V6e8marGE3o+N/qDgmmhTogO0ITWE0uTADCeig6H4j5QkrG8z+otw+TYHAGaHREo4P PsZonX4urDewgnZb+1FAwnsCY2RheffGnKYYz6p3naStxvBdlplyl/856vhgn64yaF 4yuiwqdaGyguviZC/rxWHFS5kGZHQ2C+509/4zw0mSUJF2ZeHuIWb77n6oBC/3xzwI YjXWSKbmilqiw== To: Ricardo Wurmus From: Attila Lendvai Subject: Re: Guix wiki Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <87zgo16ebc.fsf@elephly.net> References: <17e40b111ce.bc05a4a071499.1598136714226569120@excalamus.com> <17e49565b21.1285153a6259042.8278566905195778367@excalamus.com> <87zgo16ebc.fsf@elephly.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=51.77.79.158; envelope-from=attila@lendvai.name; helo=mail-0201.mail-europe.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Attila Lendvai Cc: guix-devel@gnu.org Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1641986417; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=bcSZpTJ+XHSKoecWZKbvzJspGqZrX/crJjN0s6GxiaA=; b=gbLAzAAlHTBowMpd491DT04KF3FIlnthLSRZ1tJ6Ea/12ZbUTGG/oH4/v9ohuaBBpPzOVd eDDR3nzvcoCZvZBFpkYv3XFzT7mewW72l5PnXGIKf404nCObeLm9qEdKSDJsLOggCaZ9uF ONlFgFGm2/oldDUXT8qARx8GvX1q+lemsTcrvULKG9hjeHTXoQyGdW7pwdUvBxPyl1gCsa DInsMZjZiYMBM04UfxTJbMmfbK2AplEVJqs0p0yHq0I+0IcbOp508KboSmehxxb0iCummq zBzUOX9+7Fp1G6sZzMdIvVk8ymEsgCW70YRXcn7r1DBsWfadzLZq5+QkpRodtA== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1641986417; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=HOsoS3ebwLDqnbVRstD6YD4xG3dorPg3okKh3ZCv+0SnPKp5nOyULZ24ZWAVP8HeuwlQRx boAJKiPUDgxgAwZeGhzZ6F0/t3f2KhXYnZjr/jc1CxrTijr3U9ZP+jr/m2bkeOsTPjwTGi OvI3b3fHQeXH2ZYcv4CIxsavE9xqqY5v6ym9QE2YC/qMeHgJ9q1pfIuoPxcG3UevSg0yZl Z2WOH6iD9XKCoKbn+QCYhhw73SLDNdMszL+kBhujUEeH3frbwXgbMgyz8xPydHRbGsr2g0 ogz1bXSfhNf5lGkDLyj7XAqsbvKY0ZZNHuiT2QTXs0b05OrbqFo0FmR3EZG0zw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=lendvai.name header.s=protonmail3 header.b="n/g8z+6q"; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -2.62 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=lendvai.name header.s=protonmail3 header.b="n/g8z+6q"; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 6346618698 X-Spam-Score: -2.62 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: n6IKPG4ldK9Z what follows is some 0.02 from someone relatively new to Guix. > > sending a patch to the manual is a way higher threshold than editing a > > wiki, especially when it's someone's first contribution. and some > > random, half-baked copy-paste doesn't belong in the manual, while it > > may be very useful when found in a wiki using the search engine. > > This is where we disagree. I=E2=80=99ve wasted so much time in my life > following outdated or wrong instructions on forums or wikis. I really > don=E2=80=99t want to see anything half-baked anywhere near this project.= There > are few things that frustrate me more than well-meaning but misleading > advice. sure, this is a matter of taste. although, it's one thing to get misguided with 1) informal instructions, and another with 2) formal ones (i.e. a snippet of runnable code that emits useful errors and backtraces when things go wrong). an obsolete instance of 2) can still be useful when all it needs is just a small change to follow some renames. ad-hoc example: a package definition demonstrates a complex technique, but otherwise uses the obsolete pre-c-u-f merge input syntax, for which the runtime warns/errors. > I keep repeating myself: you don=E2=80=99t need to use debbugs. We do. No= r do this is true to some extent when sending a one-shot patch to the docs. but when i'm sending patchsets to the codebase, i do need to learn at least the basics of debbugs. sorry for broadening the scope here, but these are related. > Before Guix I had never used Debbugs. I rarely ever contributed > patches. I had no idea how to send patches via email. There was a time > when I didn=E2=80=99t know that patches are generated with tools. my point is that i know all these, and have been practicing them for decades, and yet, contributing to Guix required a learning curve that was higher than it's regularly expressed by people who are already used to = it. i do understand and accept the reasons (freedom, bootstrappability, independence, etc), but i think the tools/infrastructure that Guix uses for coordination is not very familiar to most programmers. > No aspiring contributor needs to be fully formed before they are > permitted to contribute. Get yourself a mentor within the project who > can shepherd your contributions and make sure they find their way into > the right files. Ping them if your contribution seems to have been > forgotten. > > In my opinion, a public list of mentors that you can ask to charge of > your contribution would be worth more than a mere info dumping site. this sounds nice, but the reality is that nowadays reviewing and pushing commits can take weeks or even months without much feedback. i even have a fix for git-authenticate, coupled with tests that demonstrate a hole, and it's been open for months. i assume because of the lack of bandwidth from people who are in position to review and/or push it, but whatever the reason is, this is the case. the vision you are painting here is inspiring, but i think the Guix community is reaching a size where such an organizational structure is not facilitating the cooperation well enough. more and more random people will show up, with contributions of varying levels of quality. if it all goes through the current choke-points of the core (people, guix-devel, etc), then they will get overwhelmed, or at least will limit what could otherwise be achieved with more appropriate tools/processes. random example: the readability of plain-text emails pouring into guix-patches, compared to e.g. threaded, formatted, and displayed-in-context comment threads in a tool like gitlab. i subscribed to guix-patches for a while, but it felt like noise. -- =E2=80=A2 attila lendvai =E2=80=A2 PGP: 963F 5D5F 45C7 DFCD 0A39 -- =E2=80=9CBirds born in a cage think flying is an illness.=E2=80=9D =09=E2=80=94 Alejandro Jodorowsky