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* Re: MAME emulator is giving incentive to use non-free software
@ 2016-03-29 16:31 alírio eyng
  2016-03-30 22:30 ` Isaac David
                   ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 57+ messages in thread
From: alírio eyng @ 2016-03-29 16:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: guix-devel, gnu-linux-libre

these are the approaches i can think:
*extremely conservative (eliminating false positive errors)[1]
 removing all emulators
*conservative (eliminating false positive errors)[1]
 make packages/executables like game1-emulator1, game1-emulator2, ...
and not allowing direct emulator installation/execution
*liberal (avoiding false positive errors[1] and false negative errors[2])
 allowing all emulators with free games know
*extremely liberal (eliminating false negative errors)[2]
 allowing all emulators

extremely liberal is naive because it just looks down in the
dependency dag, there's no reason to not look up
extremely conservative is naive because it doesn't allow completely free uses
conservative would solve the issues that originate this thread
liberal is more convenient in some cases

i consider conservative better, liberal ok, and any of the extremes unreasonable

fsdg doesn't allow extremely liberal (according to other people
interpretation), in ndiswrapper, for example:
"with one exception, all ndis drivers are nonfree--and the one free
one is a windows port of a native linux driver. so right now, this
isn't useful for anything besides using nonfree software"[3]

parabola follows extremely conservative with your-freedom_emu[4]

assuming we choose conservative; for wine, we can make guile-wine,
emacs-wine[5] and gnutls-wine[6], but remove wine

it seems there's at least one free game needing an emulator[7]

i think this is a discussion about fsdg[8] and we should discuss it at
gnu-linux-libre@nongnu.org

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/false_positives_and_false_negatives#False_positive_error
[2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/false_positives_and_false_negatives#False_negative_error
[3]https://libreplanet.org/wiki/List_of_software_that_does_not_respect_the_Free_System_Distribution_Guidelines
[4]https://www.parabola.nu/packages/libre/any/your-freedom_emu/
[5]https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guix-devel/2016-03/msg01216.html
[6]https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guix-devel/2014-11/msg00333.html
[7]http://pineight.com/lu/
[8]http://www.gnu.org/distros/free-system-distribution-guidelines.html

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 57+ messages in thread
* Re: MAME emulator is giving incentive to use non-free software
@ 2016-03-30  4:10 IngeGNUe
  2016-03-30 16:11 ` Mark H Weaver
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 57+ messages in thread
From: IngeGNUe @ 2016-03-30  4:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: guix-devel


>I can assume you have verified it for compliance. Please also reconsider
>if than free software distribution shall include malware GPL licensed
>software, because we cannot know neither assume that people are going to
>use it for malware purposes, even though it is malware.


The FSDG already rules out malware.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 57+ messages in thread
* Re: MAME emulator is giving incentive to use non-free software
@ 2016-03-29 14:01 Jean Louis
  2016-03-29 14:46 ` Nils Gillmann
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 57+ messages in thread
From: Jean Louis @ 2016-03-29 14:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: guix-devel

Hello Nils,

On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 02:41:54PM +0200, Nils Gillmann wrote:
> If we drop it, there will be very likely inofficial repositories
> carrying it, like there are now for custom packaged non-free
> software. And those people will end up coming to our chat and
> lists, and we have to deal with it somehow in distancing us very
> clearly from third party packages (if not already done so).

That is because basic guidlines of GuixSD are missing. And people surely
come for the convenience but miss to understand what it means to
distribute free software.

I am now more aware of that. There is absolutely no legal background in
accepting packages for distribution, which means developers lack
understanding of it.

It is not possible to be a programmer and attorney in the same
time. Qualified people, probably from FSF, shall assist in solving
trademark issues, as there is no point giving links if those who make
software packages, and those who accept it, do not have a process of
legal approval.

For example, I guess there is absolutely no point in reading this text
here over Nintendo® trademarks:
https://www.nintendo.com/corp/legal.jsp#emulator because those who
accept packages they simply think it is alright to do what they do, and
their opinions and knowledge lack any clues of trademark laws.

Jean Lous

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 57+ messages in thread
* MAME emulator is giving incentive to use non-free software
@ 2016-03-28 21:55 Jean Louis
  2016-03-29  0:26 ` Jookia
                   ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 57+ messages in thread
From: Jean Louis @ 2016-03-28 21:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: guix-devel

I have already sent request to FSF to review this issue. But here it is
for the list.

I am free software user. I don't want my children to find MAME on my
computer. I have 3 children. They will be using free software
distributions, with free software BIOS on free hardware.

I don't want my children to find MAME on computer. I don't want them to
search for software in GuixSD and find MAME, and later to find ROMs,
which are non-free.

Including MAME or any other emulator, even though non-free as such, if
such emulator is practically of no use to free software users without
non-free additions or parts, firmware, blobs, or ROMs, is giving
incentive to free software users to use non-free.

Put yourself in the view point of free software user. What such user is
going to do with WINE? What is he/she/it going to do practically with
MAME? Nothing. They will have no use of that software. Single cases are
exceptions. Exceptions may download it themselves, they don't need to
get it delivered by free software distribution of GNU.

My username is jmarciano. Please see discussion here:
https://gnunet.org/bot/log/guix/2016-03-28

I cannot believe that MAME and WINE and such emulators are to be
included in free software distributions. MAME clearly gives incentive to
use non-free software.

Further, that is hypocricy.

I am on GNU system due to non-free software. And according to these
guidelines here:
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-system-distribution-guidelines.html

there is, I cite:

"Please Teach Users about Free Software

To establish lasting freedom, just giving users freedom isn't
sufficient. It is necessary also to teach them to understand what it
means and to demand it.

I am asking you to review and correct if possible, the inclusion of
packages such as: WINE and MAME into GNU distribution GuixSD.

Everybody can download WINE and MAME onto their computers. There may be
legitimate reasons to use such software, but what about practical
results?

Enabling both WINE, MAME or any other emulator that requires non-free
software to run, or that helps non-free software to run on free GNU
distribution, is not in alignment with "teach them to understand what it
means and to demand it".

I am demanding it now.

Jean Louis

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 57+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2016-04-27  0:31 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 57+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2016-03-29 16:31 MAME emulator is giving incentive to use non-free software alírio eyng
2016-03-30 22:30 ` Isaac David
2016-04-02  3:17   ` Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli
2016-03-31 22:50 ` alírio eyng
2016-04-01  6:23   ` Ricardo Wurmus
2016-04-01 12:15     ` alírio eyng
2016-04-01 20:03       ` alírio eyng
2016-04-02  2:19 ` Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli
2016-04-02  8:48   ` [GNU-linux-libre] " alírio eyng
2016-04-03 14:20     ` alírio eyng
2016-04-03 18:36       ` alírio eyng
2016-04-03 19:39         ` Felipe Sanches
2016-04-03 21:02         ` alírio eyng
2016-04-03 21:22           ` Felipe Sanches
2016-04-04  3:26           ` alírio eyng
2016-04-04 11:19             ` Felipe Sanches
2016-04-04 22:23             ` alírio eyng
2016-04-04 22:47               ` [GNU-linux-libre] " Felipe Sanches
2016-04-04 22:58                 ` Felipe Sanches
2016-04-04 22:59                   ` Felipe Sanches
2016-04-05  2:29               ` alírio eyng
2016-04-09  9:00               ` Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli
2016-04-09 19:43                 ` alírio eyng
2016-04-27  0:31                   ` [GNU-linux-libre] " alírio eyng
2016-04-05 15:59     ` Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli
2016-04-06 11:02       ` alírio eyng
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2016-03-30  4:10 IngeGNUe
2016-03-30 16:11 ` Mark H Weaver
2016-03-30 21:26   ` IngeGNUe
2016-03-29 14:01 Jean Louis
2016-03-29 14:46 ` Nils Gillmann
2016-03-28 21:55 Jean Louis
2016-03-29  0:26 ` Jookia
2016-03-29  4:42   ` Jean Louis
2016-03-29  6:27     ` Jookia
2016-03-29  7:30       ` Jean Louis
2016-03-29  8:25         ` Jookia
2016-03-29 11:35           ` rain1
2016-03-29 12:00             ` Jean Louis
2016-03-29 12:48               ` Nils Gillmann
2016-03-29 14:23               ` Mathieu Lirzin
2016-03-29 14:52                 ` Jean Louis
2016-03-29 16:15                   ` Ludovic Courtès
2016-03-29 17:29                     ` Jean Louis
2016-03-29 17:47                     ` Jean Louis
2016-03-29 12:41         ` Nils Gillmann
2016-03-29  1:44 ` Mark H Weaver
2016-03-29 13:03   ` Ludovic Courtès
2016-03-29 17:30   ` Christopher Allan Webber
2016-03-29 17:32     ` Thompson, David
2016-03-29 17:37       ` Eric Bavier
2016-03-30 20:25     ` Ludovic Courtès
2016-03-29  8:58 ` Taylan Ulrich Bayırlı/Kammer
2016-03-29 10:12   ` Jean Louis
2016-03-29 13:14     ` Ludovic Courtès
2016-03-29 13:51       ` Jean Louis
2016-03-29 16:09         ` Ludovic Courtès

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