From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Catonano Subject: Re: my latest blog post Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2018 09:47:35 +0200 Message-ID: References: <877enaimsn.fsf@fastmail.com> <87po11j46q.fsf@dustycloud.org> <87k1r91hkp.fsf@elephly.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e68bfe056e30ba1e" Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:38304) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRYb5-0003BI-Ub for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jun 2018 03:47:41 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRYb3-0001QY-SP for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jun 2018 03:47:39 -0400 Received: from mail-yw0-x229.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4002:c05::229]:37638) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRYb3-0001QS-KR for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jun 2018 03:47:37 -0400 Received: by mail-yw0-x229.google.com with SMTP id j190-v6so4844605ywe.4 for ; Sat, 09 Jun 2018 00:47:37 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87k1r91hkp.fsf@elephly.net> List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+gcggd-guix-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" To: Ricardo Wurmus Cc: guix-devel , Joshua Branson --000000000000e68bfe056e30ba1e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2018-06-08 16:25 GMT+02:00 Ricardo Wurmus : > > Hi Catonano, > > > Andy Wingo has a post in which he lists tasks he'd lie to be implemente= d > on > > Guile, many of them have to do with the file format of the compiled > files. > > > > Some love should go to the quality of the experience too, not only to t= he > > tech issues > > These are very closely linked. I mention this because it may not be > obvious to people like myself who don=E2=80=99t work on compilers. > > FWIW, people *are* working on improving the experience of programming > with Guile. Some do this by working on Geiser, others by writing > libraries that are well-suited for exploratory programming with Geiser, > etc. > I know I'm not negating anyone's efforts > Mark wrote to Fis in that thread on the Guile mailing list that in order > to > > have better error messages, the compiler should be modified (and that > would > > be an awful lot of work) > > Exactly. Please note that the compiler is currently being modified, so > it is not a good idea to start other big architectural changes right > now. > > > I just think that the problem deserves to be mapped out so that people > know > > what they're getting into > > Certainly. We cannot demand of other people to do this work for us, > though. I'm not demanding anything to anyone I *offered* to edit the manual in a way that is more bearable in my opinion, in regard to macro expansion. I don't now if I will ever be able to offer a proper macro stepping tool Should I be able, I'd be glad to provide the community with it > If you follow guile-devel you will also see that some compiler > changes have resulted in certain regressions, which are debugged, > addressed, and ultimately fixed. Losing certain means of debugging > things would also be considered a regression, and they can generally be > handled in the same way. > Again: I didn't negate anyone's work I explicitl wrote that what made the difference is not the technology > Andy=E2=80=99s time is still limited. What other people can do is discus= s > *specific* cases on guile-devel and work towards a solution. But please > do not demand of others to explain everything in detail. (I=E2=80=99m di= recting > this at everyone who heeds my advice to go to guile-devel, not at any > one person in particular.) In order to have a positive impact you also > need to learn enough about the state of the art to ensure that the > discussions can be productive. > I think I demonstrated I am ready to put some effort into this And I think this remark is unfair I know Andy was in good faith. I acknowledged again and again that there is a cognitive (cultural ?) problem What I proposed is to focus on where we are now so that the right direction can be envisioned I didn't scream that I want better error messages _right now_ Maybe the lesson here should be that the quality of the experience should be taken into account in the first place and not as an afterthough, as if it was the need of a random user I was trying to underline the feedback that was brought here by a user And I brought some feedback myself Believe it or not, I am trying to _help_ Guile to improve And the improvement is not technological, it's cultural And saying I should come on guile-dev and actually provide what I thin is useful, nowing that I can't (not immediately is not a fair answer either Because it's equivalent to a "fuck you" This is discussed in some of the links I provided too I devolved some time in making my case It's some articulated and well thoug feedback. Of the kind that the Guile community is sorely missing As for macro expansion, how would I have been supposed to know the context of macro expansion ? Shouldn't I have been asking ? > For compiler design I have a lot of things to read before being able to > contribute meaningfully to a discussion; all I can do is record > instances where Guile produces poor error messages and try to figure out > what led to this outcome. Once I=E2=80=99ve done my work I can share thi= s with > other developers and get their input. > I don't know if I will ever delve into the compiler For now, I just wanted to understan the store monad Macro expansion is the first step of compiling, as far as I understand, anyway. So taking care that it's reasonably discussed could be a first step in having more compiler hackers, some day I am trying to contribute from where I am, not from where you require me to be And this is valuable too, to some extent If you don't see this, than you are confirming the cultural problem that I strived to depict Some final remarks: > > I should say that I=E2=80=99m rather unhappy with your labelling of the G= uile > community as =E2=80=9Ctoxic=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cfull of jerks=E2=80=9D. = This has not been my > experience at all, neither in my communications with the maintainers, > nor in the response to my modest contributions. > Good for you My experience was different > I will say that it is a rather quiet community, though. What you called > =E2=80=9Cthe silent treatment=E2=80=9D is just silence, which is occasion= ally punctured > by helpful comments. As a co-maintainer of Guix I would feel very > uncomfortable if my replying to some (but not all) emails would be > construed as an act of aggression, or really any kind of silent attempt > at communicating something. In that case I=E2=80=99d much rather *not* r= espond > to any emails. > Ok, I already applogized to Mark for having assumed that his silence was aggression, when it wasn't Someone else made me notice this too I'll apologize to you too But if you take a look at thhe guile-user mailing list, and another loo at the guix-dev mailing list (or even to the guix help mailing list) you'll get 2 completely different outlooks Maybe it's not aggression Still there's something deeply different going on in the 2 places > With regards to the shouting match on #guile that you linked in your > blog post, I can only say that I would have likely stepped in had this > happened when I was around. Textual communication certainly should not > reach these levels of apparent aggression. > What do you mean with "apparent" ? I felt it was pretty substantial I think that person should be reprimanded and possibly temporary banned from the channels My partecipation in the shouting was only a pale substitute of what I deem opportune --000000000000e68bfe056e30ba1e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
2018-06-08 16:25 GMT+02:00 Ricardo Wurmus <rekado@elephl= y.net>:

Hi Catonano,

> Andy Wingo has a post in which he lists tasks he'd lie to be imple= mented on
> Guile, many of them have to do with the file format of the compiled fi= les.
>
> Some love should go to the quality of the experience too, not only to = the
> tech issues

These are very closely linked.=C2=A0 I mention this because it may n= ot be
obvious to people like myself who don=E2=80=99t work on compilers.

FWIW, people *are* working on improving the experience of programming
with Guile.=C2=A0 Some do this by working on Geiser, others by writing
libraries that are well-suited for exploratory programming with Geiser,
etc.

I know

I'm n= ot negating anyone's efforts

> Mark wrote to Fis in that thread on the Guile mailing list that in ord= er to
> have better error messages, the compiler should be modified (and that = would
> be an awful lot of work)

Exactly.=C2=A0 Please note that the compiler is currently being modi= fied, so
it is not a good idea to start other big architectural changes right
now.

> I just think that the problem deserves to be mapped out so that people= know
> what they're getting into

Certainly.=C2=A0 We cannot demand of other people to do this work fo= r us,
though.=C2=A0

I'm not demanding anythi= ng to anyone

I *offered* to edit the manual in= a way that is more bearable in my opinion, in regard to macro expansion.
I don't now if I will ever be able to offer a proper m= acro stepping tool

Should I be able, I'd be glad to p= rovide the community with it
=C2=A0
If you follow guile-devel you will also see that some compiler changes have resulted in certain regressions, which are debugged,
addressed, and ultimately fixed.=C2=A0 Losing certain means of debugging things would also be considered a regression, and they can generally be
handled in the same way.

Again: I didn&= #39;t negate anyone's work

I explicitl wrote that wha= t made the difference is not the technology
=C2=A0
Andy=E2=80=99s time is still limited.=C2=A0 What other people can do is dis= cuss
*specific* cases on guile-devel and work towards a solution.=C2=A0 But plea= se
do not demand of others to explain everything in detail.=C2=A0 (I=E2=80=99m= directing
this at everyone who heeds my advice to go to guile-devel, not at any
one person in particular.)=C2=A0 In order to have a positive impact you als= o
need to learn enough about the state of the art to ensure that the
discussions can be productive.

I think = I demonstrated I am ready to put some effort into this

An= d I think this remark is unfair

I know Andy was in good faith. I ack= nowledged again and again that there is a cognitive (cultural ?) problem
What I proposed is to focus on where we are now so that the right= direction can be envisioned

I didn't scream that I want b= etter error messages _right now_

Maybe the lesson here should be tha= t the quality of the experience=20 should be taken into account in the first place and not as an=20 afterthough, as if it was the need of a random user

I was= trying to underline the feedback that was brought here by a user
=

And I brought some feedback myself

Be= lieve it or not, I am trying to _help_ Guile to improve

A= nd the improvement is not technological, it's cultural

And saying I should come on guile-dev and actually provide what I thin is= useful, nowing that I can't (not immediately is not a fair answer eith= er

Because it's equivalent to a "fuck you"<= br>
This is discussed in some of the links I provided too
=
I devolved some time in making my case

It's some articulated and well thoug feedback. Of the kind that= the Guile community is sorely missing

As for = macro expansion, how would I have been supposed to know the context of macr= o expansion ?

Shouldn't I have been asking ?

=C2=A0
For compiler design I have a lot of things to read before being able to
contribute meaningfully to a discussion; all I can do is record
instances where Guile produces poor error messages and try to figure out what led to this outcome.=C2=A0 Once I=E2=80=99ve done my work I can share = this with
other developers and get their input.

I= don't know if I will ever delve into the compiler

Fo= r now, I just wanted to understan the store monad

Macro e= xpansion is the first step of compiling, as far as I understand, anyway.
So taking care that it's reasonably discussed could be = a first step in having more compiler hackers, some day
=C2=A0=
I am trying to contribute from where I am, not from where yo= u require me to be

And this is valuable too, to some exte= nt

If you don't see this, than you are confirming the= cultural problem that I strived to depict

Some final remarks:

I should say that I=E2=80=99m rather unhappy with your labelling of the Gui= le
community as =E2=80=9Ctoxic=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cfull of jerks=E2=80=9D.=C2= =A0 This has not been my
experience at all, neither in my communications with the maintainers,
nor in the response to my modest contributions.

Good for you
My experience was different
=C2=A0
I will say that it is a rather quiet community, though.=C2=A0 What you call= ed
=E2=80=9Cthe silent treatment=E2=80=9D is just silence, which is occasional= ly punctured
by helpful comments.=C2=A0 As a co-maintainer of Guix I would feel very
uncomfortable if my replying to some (but not all) emails would be
construed as an act of aggression, or really any kind of silent attempt
at communicating something.=C2=A0 In that case I=E2=80=99d much rather *not= * respond
to any emails.

Ok, I already applogized= to Mark for having assumed that his silence was aggression, when it wasn&#= 39;t

Someone else made me notice this too

I'll apologize to you too

But if you take a look a= t thhe guile-user mailing list, and another loo at the guix-dev mailing lis= t (or even to the guix help mailing list) you'll get 2 completely diffe= rent outlooks

Maybe it's not aggression

=
Still there's something deeply different going on in the 2 places<= br>
=C2=A0
With regards to the shouting match on #guile that you linked in your
blog post, I can only say that I would have likely stepped in had this
happened when I was around.=C2=A0 Textual communication certainly should no= t
reach these levels of apparent aggression.

<= div>What do you mean with "apparent" ?
I felt it wa= s pretty substantial

I think that person should be reprim= anded=C2=A0 and possibly temporary banned from the channels

My partecipation in the shouting was only a pale substitute of what I de= em opportune
--000000000000e68bfe056e30ba1e--