Mark,

thank you again for your remarks

2018-06-08 20:05 GMT+02:00 Mark H Weaver = <mhw@netris.org&= gt;:

Hi Catonano,

Thank you for your email.=C2=A0 I don't have time to make a proper resp= onse
yet, but for now I will respond to just one point:

Catonano <catona= no@gmail.com> writes:
> On my side, I was a bit adversary because I feel that a macro stepper<= br> > is a fundamental feature of a scheme system and in Guile it's less=
> than an afterthought

As far as I know, Racket is the only Scheme implementation with a ma= cro
stepper for hygienic macros.=C2=A0 Do you know of any others?

Admittedly, no
=C2=A0

So, I strongly disagree that a macro stepper is a "fundamental feature=
of a scheme system".=C2=A0 In fact, Scheme first appeared in 1975, and= first
gained hygienic macros in 1986, but it was not until ~2007 that a macro
stepper for Scheme appeared, for Racket (called PLT Scheme at the time). The paper, <https://www2.ccs.neu.edu/racke= t/pubs/gpce07-cf.pdf>,
described it as "the first macro stepper for Scheme".

Oh wow !
I didn'tnow this article existed,= I'll go to print it today !
Thanks for indicating that !=
=C2=A0
> I understand that implementing it is too much work

It's not that it's too much work; it just hasn't yet bee= n done.

> But I think that the manual should at least mention macro stepping as<= br> > a missing feature,

If it were part of a Scheme standard, or even a very commonly
implemented extension, then I would agree that we should document its
absence.=C2=A0 However, as far as I know, Racket is the only Scheme
implementation that has a macro stepper.=C2=A0 So, this is not a feature th= at
users generally expect to have in a Scheme implementation.

I disagree that the Guile manual should specifically call attention to a missing feature that almost no other Scheme implementation includes.

Whenever people switch from one Scheme implementation to another, they
will notice many missing features and APIs, and some new ones.=C2=A0 In you= r
case, you noticed that Guile lacks Racket's macro stepper, but there ar= e
a great many other things in Racket which Guile lacks.

If we were to start documenting all of the features that exist in at
least one Scheme implementation as missing features, that's quite a
slippery slope.=C2=A0 I don't want to go down that slope.

If this were a common confusion among our users, then there would be
some justification for this, but it's not a common confusion.=C2=A0 In = the
decade since the first Scheme macro stepper was invented, you are the
_only_ person who has reported confusion from the absence of this
feature in Guile.

That's not to say that you're unreasonable; it's simply due to = your
particular experience of being acquainted with this feature of Racket
and perhaps being surprised that Guile didn't have it.=C2=A0 This same = thing
could happen with _any_ feature of _any_ Scheme implementation.

Does that make sense?

Yes, it does mae = sense.

But I respectfully disagree

It&#= 39;s not that I don't see your point. Documenting Racet features as mis= sing features is not a slope you want to roll along and I wouldn't want= either

But I still think a macro stepper is a fundamenta= l feature of any scheme system

The fact that only Racket = provides a macro stepper is quite sad

But that says somet= hing of why scheme is a niche language, albeit being so elegant and powerfu= l

Tooling is not optional and it shouldn't be an afte= rthought

It shouldn't be, because the experience of t= he naive programmer _does matter_

The maturity= of tooling is one of the ranks used to evaluate the viability of programmi= ng environments

I have been playing with Clojurescript be= fore approaching Guix and in the beginnings the clourescript tooling was so= rely lacking many features and lagging in many ways

But t= hat was acnowledged as a problem or at least as a legitimate whish list iss= ue

In my post I argued that the communities of other prog= ramming languages are way more thriving than the Gule one

I think that your approach to macro stepping is an example of what's w= rong with this culturre, that is in part academic, in part GNU

I acknowledged that this is=C2=A0 a cognitive problem, I acknowledged= that there's a lack of resources

But I won't ack= nowledge that this is ok

It's not

S= o I understand that you don't want the manual states macro stepping as = a missing feature

But I think that macro stepping should = be explicitly mentioned

Maybe it could be somethiing alo= ng the lines of

"
a tool that should go along wit= h hygienic macrro expansion is a macro stepping facility, in order to allow= people to dissect and learn macro based libraries

Guile = has no macro stepper but not all is lost !
...""

=
and then it would go on in explaining what you explained to me on the = mailing list

Honestly I think that keeping this inforrmat= ion hidden deep in the guts of a paragraph about something else is plainly = unfair to users

Assuming that users read academic article= s about programming languages in order to know your way aroung Guile is not= reasonable

Guile is not a research project or a doctorat= e thesis

Guile is supposed to be a liberating and empower= ing tool

Isn't it ? Maybe I misinterpreted ?

=
Assuming that in order to fully take advantage of it you should = be an academic is as elitarist as I can conceive

Now, I u= ndertsand that it's not a consumer product either

Nei= ther Clojure is, by the way.

But, jeez, you can't req= uire reading academic articles and then wonder how come the community is so= small !!

This is exactly what should be done to keep the= Guile community as small as possible !
Academics or academics wannabe = only !

This is a self serving prophecy !

The GNU tools should cater to the freedom of _final users_ not universiti= es and corporations only !

Or did I misinterpet this too = ?

The first computer in my adult life was an A= pple Macintosh (a Performa 6200)

In the Apple world the s= oftware was said to be autoexplicative, if any software required to read a = manual before the use it was considered to be BAD DESIGN and used to be fro= wned upon.

And here I am required to read academic articl= es !!

I know it's unpalatable to you, but = Apple did A LOT to popularize computing

Apple DEFINED the= desktop as we know it today and then defined the mobile phones as we now t= hem today

While Guile is on the verge of complete irrelev= ance

I repeat: THE COMPUTER FOR THE REST OF US= is still a lesson !!

I honestly thhin that th= he Guile communty should do an effort to step out of its comfort zone.
<= /div>

If you offer hygienic macro expansion then you als= o have to offer the tools to allow people to play with them !

The monad accessing the daemon, how would I delve in it ? <= br>

Is it supposed to be an artifact in support of an academi= c article and once published there's nothing more to be done/said about= it ?

I mean, you all are competent people. Don't yo= u see the difference in the spirit of te communities of, say, python, javas= cript or R ?

Now, again, Mark, this is not personal

I know you're in good faith.

I understan= d where you're coming from.

And I also undertsand tha= t this tirade of mine will be unpalatable to you. I'm sorry.

I'd like you to understad also where I AM COMING FROM

What I'm trying to do,=C2=A0 here, believe it or not, is impro= ving Guile.

And the improvement that Guile needs is not t= echnological. It's cultural.

Now, please, tell me: is it wo= rth that I edit the manual to include in a reasonable way the notions that you provided my with about macro=20 stepping ?

Or would you refuse to merge it ?

<= /div>

--0000000000005423a9056e301113-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Catonano Subject: Re: my latest blog post Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2018 09:47:35 +0200 Message-ID: References: <877enaimsn.fsf@fastmail.com> <87po11j46q.fsf@dustycloud.org> <87k1r91hkp.fsf@elephly.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e68bfe056e30ba1e" Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:38304) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRYb5-0003BI-Ub for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jun 2018 03:47:41 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRYb3-0001QY-SP for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jun 2018 03:47:39 -0400 Received: from mail-yw0-x229.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4002:c05::229]:37638) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRYb3-0001QS-KR for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jun 2018 03:47:37 -0400 Received: by mail-yw0-x229.google.com with SMTP id j190-v6so4844605ywe.4 for ; Sat, 09 Jun 2018 00:47:37 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87k1r91hkp.fsf@elephly.net> List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+gcggd-guix-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" To: Ricardo Wurmus Cc: guix-devel , Joshua Branson --000000000000e68bfe056e30ba1e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2018-06-08 16:25 GMT+02:00 Ricardo Wurmus : > > Hi Catonano, > > > Andy Wingo has a post in which he lists tasks he'd lie to be implemente= d > on > > Guile, many of them have to do with the file format of the compiled > files. > > > > Some love should go to the quality of the experience too, not only to t= he > > tech issues > > These are very closely linked. I mention this because it may not be > obvious to people like myself who don=E2=80=99t work on compilers. > > FWIW, people *are* working on improving the experience of programming > with Guile. Some do this by working on Geiser, others by writing > libraries that are well-suited for exploratory programming with Geiser, > etc. > I know I'm not negating anyone's efforts > Mark wrote to Fis in that thread on the Guile mailing list that in order > to > > have better error messages, the compiler should be modified (and that > would > > be an awful lot of work) > > Exactly. Please note that the compiler is currently being modified, so > it is not a good idea to start other big architectural changes right > now. > > > I just think that the problem deserves to be mapped out so that people > know > > what they're getting into > > Certainly. We cannot demand of other people to do this work for us, > though. I'm not demanding anything to anyone I *offered* to edit the manual in a way that is more bearable in my opinion, in regard to macro expansion. I don't now if I will ever be able to offer a proper macro stepping tool Should I be able, I'd be glad to provide the community with it > If you follow guile-devel you will also see that some compiler > changes have resulted in certain regressions, which are debugged, > addressed, and ultimately fixed. Losing certain means of debugging > things would also be considered a regression, and they can generally be > handled in the same way. > Again: I didn't negate anyone's work I explicitl wrote that what made the difference is not the technology > Andy=E2=80=99s time is still limited. What other people can do is discus= s > *specific* cases on guile-devel and work towards a solution. But please > do not demand of others to explain everything in detail. (I=E2=80=99m di= recting > this at everyone who heeds my advice to go to guile-devel, not at any > one person in particular.) In order to have a positive impact you also > need to learn enough about the state of the art to ensure that the > discussions can be productive. > I think I demonstrated I am ready to put some effort into this And I think this remark is unfair I know Andy was in good faith. I acknowledged again and again that there is a cognitive (cultural ?) problem What I proposed is to focus on where we are now so that the right direction can be envisioned I didn't scream that I want better error messages _right now_ Maybe the lesson here should be that the quality of the experience should be taken into account in the first place and not as an afterthough, as if it was the need of a random user I was trying to underline the feedback that was brought here by a user And I brought some feedback myself Believe it or not, I am trying to _help_ Guile to improve And the improvement is not technological, it's cultural And saying I should come on guile-dev and actually provide what I thin is useful, nowing that I can't (not immediately is not a fair answer either Because it's equivalent to a "fuck you" This is discussed in some of the links I provided too I devolved some time in making my case It's some articulated and well thoug feedback. Of the kind that the Guile community is sorely missing As for macro expansion, how would I have been supposed to know the context of macro expansion ? Shouldn't I have been asking ? > For compiler design I have a lot of things to read before being able to > contribute meaningfully to a discussion; all I can do is record > instances where Guile produces poor error messages and try to figure out > what led to this outcome. Once I=E2=80=99ve done my work I can share thi= s with > other developers and get their input. > I don't know if I will ever delve into the compiler For now, I just wanted to understan the store monad Macro expansion is the first step of compiling, as far as I understand, anyway. So taking care that it's reasonably discussed could be a first step in having more compiler hackers, some day I am trying to contribute from where I am, not from where you require me to be And this is valuable too, to some extent If you don't see this, than you are confirming the cultural problem that I strived to depict Some final remarks: > > I should say that I=E2=80=99m rather unhappy with your labelling of the G= uile > community as =E2=80=9Ctoxic=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cfull of jerks=E2=80=9D. = This has not been my > experience at all, neither in my communications with the maintainers, > nor in the response to my modest contributions. > Good for you My experience was different > I will say that it is a rather quiet community, though. What you called > =E2=80=9Cthe silent treatment=E2=80=9D is just silence, which is occasion= ally punctured > by helpful comments. As a co-maintainer of Guix I would feel very > uncomfortable if my replying to some (but not all) emails would be > construed as an act of aggression, or really any kind of silent attempt > at communicating something. In that case I=E2=80=99d much rather *not* r= espond > to any emails. > Ok, I already applogized to Mark for having assumed that his silence was aggression, when it wasn't Someone else made me notice this too I'll apologize to you too But if you take a look at thhe guile-user mailing list, and another loo at the guix-dev mailing list (or even to the guix help mailing list) you'll get 2 completely different outlooks Maybe it's not aggression Still there's something deeply different going on in the 2 places > With regards to the shouting match on #guile that you linked in your > blog post, I can only say that I would have likely stepped in had this > happened when I was around. Textual communication certainly should not > reach these levels of apparent aggression. > What do you mean with "apparent" ? I felt it was pretty substantial I think that person should be reprimanded and possibly temporary banned from the channels My partecipation in the shouting was only a pale substitute of what I deem opportune --000000000000e68bfe056e30ba1e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

2018-06-08 16:25 GMT+02:00 Ricardo Wurmus <rekado@elephl= y.net>:

Hi Catonano,

> Andy Wingo has a post in which he lists tasks he'd lie to be imple= mented on
> Guile, many of them have to do with the file format of the compiled fi= les.
>
> Some love should go to the quality of the experience too, not only to = the
> tech issues

These are very closely linked.=C2=A0 I mention this because it may n= ot be
obvious to people like myself who don=E2=80=99t work on compilers.

FWIW, people *are* working on improving the experience of programming
with Guile.=C2=A0 Some do this by working on Geiser, others by writing
libraries that are well-suited for exploratory programming with Geiser,
etc.

I know

I'm n= ot negating anyone's efforts

> Mark wrote to Fis in that thread on the Guile mailing list that in ord= er to
> have better error messages, the compiler should be modified (and that = would
> be an awful lot of work)

Exactly.=C2=A0 Please note that the compiler is currently being modi= fied, so
it is not a good idea to start other big architectural changes right
now.

> I just think that the problem deserves to be mapped out so that people= know
> what they're getting into

Certainly.=C2=A0 We cannot demand of other people to do this work fo= r us,
though.=C2=A0

I'm not demanding anythi= ng to anyone

I *offered* to edit the manual in= a way that is more bearable in my opinion, in regard to macro expansion.

I don't now if I will ever be able to offer a proper m= acro stepping tool

Should I be able, I'd be glad to p= rovide the community with it

=C2=A0

If you follow guile-devel you will also see that some compiler changes have resulted in certain regressions, which are debugged,
addressed, and ultimately fixed.=C2=A0 Losing certain means of debugging things would also be considered a regression, and they can generally be
handled in the same way.

Again: I didn&= #39;t negate anyone's work

I explicitl wrote that wha= t made the difference is not the technology

=C2=A0

Andy=E2=80=99s time is still limited.=C2=A0 What other people can do is dis= cuss
*specific* cases on guile-devel and work towards a solution.=C2=A0 But plea= se
do not demand of others to explain everything in detail.=C2=A0 (I=E2=80=99m= directing
this at everyone who heeds my advice to go to guile-devel, not at any
one person in particular.)=C2=A0 In order to have a positive impact you als= o
need to learn enough about the state of the art to ensure that the
discussions can be productive.

I think = I demonstrated I am ready to put some effort into this

An= d I think this remark is unfair

I know Andy was in good faith. I ack= nowledged again and again that there is a cognitive (cultural ?) problem

What I proposed is to focus on where we are now so that the right= direction can be envisioned

I didn't scream that I want b= etter error messages _right now_

Maybe the lesson here should be tha= t the quality of the experience=20 should be taken into account in the first place and not as an=20 afterthough, as if it was the need of a random user

I was= trying to underline the feedback that was brought here by a user

And I brought some feedback myself

Be= lieve it or not, I am trying to _help_ Guile to improve

A= nd the improvement is not technological, it's cultural

And saying I should come on guile-dev and actually provide what I thin is= useful, nowing that I can't (not immediately is not a fair answer eith= er

Because it's equivalent to a "fuck you"<= br>

This is discussed in some of the links I provided too
=

I devolved some time in making my case

It's some articulated and well thoug feedback. Of the kind that= the Guile community is sorely missing

As for = macro expansion, how would I have been supposed to know the context of macr= o expansion ?

Shouldn't I have been asking ?

=C2=A0

For compiler design I have a lot of things to read before being able to
contribute meaningfully to a discussion; all I can do is record
instances where Guile produces poor error messages and try to figure out what led to this outcome.=C2=A0 Once I=E2=80=99ve done my work I can share = this with
other developers and get their input.

I= don't know if I will ever delve into the compiler

Fo= r now, I just wanted to understan the store monad

Macro e= xpansion is the first step of compiling, as far as I understand, anyway.

So taking care that it's reasonably discussed could be = a first step in having more compiler hackers, some day

=C2=A0=

I am trying to contribute from where I am, not from where yo= u require me to be

And this is valuable too, to some exte= nt

If you don't see this, than you are confirming the= cultural problem that I strived to depict

Some final remarks:

I should say that I=E2=80=99m rather unhappy with your labelling of the Gui= le
community as =E2=80=9Ctoxic=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cfull of jerks=E2=80=9D.=C2= =A0 This has not been my
experience at all, neither in my communications with the maintainers,
nor in the response to my modest contributions.

Good for you

My experience was different
=C2=A0

I will say that it is a rather quiet community, though.=C2=A0 What you call= ed
=E2=80=9Cthe silent treatment=E2=80=9D is just silence, which is occasional= ly punctured
by helpful comments.=C2=A0 As a co-maintainer of Guix I would feel very
uncomfortable if my replying to some (but not all) emails would be
construed as an act of aggression, or really any kind of silent attempt
at communicating something.=C2=A0 In that case I=E2=80=99d much rather *not= * respond
to any emails.

Ok, I already applogized= to Mark for having assumed that his silence was aggression, when it wasn&#= 39;t

Someone else made me notice this too

I'll apologize to you too

But if you take a look a= t thhe guile-user mailing list, and another loo at the guix-dev mailing lis= t (or even to the guix help mailing list) you'll get 2 completely diffe= rent outlooks

Maybe it's not aggression

Still there's something deeply different going on in the 2 places<= br>

=C2=A0

With regards to the shouting match on #guile that you linked in your
blog post, I can only say that I would have likely stepped in had this
happened when I was around.=C2=A0 Textual communication certainly should no= t
reach these levels of apparent aggression.

<= div>What do you mean with "apparent" ?

I felt it wa= s pretty substantial

I think that person should be reprim= anded=C2=A0 and possibly temporary banned from the channels

My partecipation in the shouting was only a pale substitute of what I de= em opportune

--000000000000e68bfe056e30ba1e-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Catonano Subject: Re: my latest blog post Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2018 12:52:42 +0200 Message-ID: References: <87bmcmzfyz.fsf@netris.org> <87lgbpp31h.fsf@netris.org> <87a7s41bwz.fsf@elephly.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000dfa711056e335012" Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:34147) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRbUC-00021d-RD for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jun 2018 06:52:45 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRbUB-0004SU-Qb for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jun 2018 06:52:44 -0400 Received: from mail-yb0-x235.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4002:c09::235]:46200) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRbUB-0004SN-KX for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jun 2018 06:52:43 -0400 Received: by mail-yb0-x235.google.com with SMTP id p22-v6so5213714yba.13 for ; Sat, 09 Jun 2018 03:52:43 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87a7s41bwz.fsf@elephly.net> List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+gcggd-guix-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" To: Ricardo Wurmus Cc: guix-devel --000000000000dfa711056e335012 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2018-06-09 12:39 GMT+02:00 Ricardo Wurmus : > > Catonano writes: > > > Assuming that users read academic articles about programming languages = in > > order to know your way aroung Guile is not reasonable > > I fail to see how this follows from Guile=E2=80=99s lack of a macro stepp= er. Then you were not following Mark indicated me a paper about the first macro stepper in history > To > be honest, I never even heard of a macro stepper before. I haden't heard of it neither I am following Mark's distinction, here, between a macro stepper and macroexpand-1 I don't know if other schemes lack macroexpand-1 too but at this point it wouldn't be relevant anymore > And I have > never felt the need to read computer science papers to =E2=80=9Cknow my w= ay > around Guile=E2=80=9D. (I have not studied computer science, so it isn= =E2=80=99t that > my background allowed me to skip papers that are mandatory for other > users of Guile.) > > The sentence above seems like an exaggeration to me. > Ok, thans for your contribution > (I say this with no hostility, just with surprise.) > we have a loooong way to go > > > The monad accessing the daemon, how would I delve in it ? > > The Guix manual should explain it fully, while assuming that the concept > of a monad is known (because that=E2=80=99s not a Guix or Guile invention= ). And how would I know what a monad is without reading academic materials ? Maybe Haskell is a requirement in order to use Guile//Guix ? "assuming that the concept of a monad is known" is a problem. Someone would want to _learn_ what a monad is AND how it can be implemented in scheme, by dissecting this Guix macro based feature Do you think that the code should be kept obscure and unaccessible ? So much for the Emacs of distros --000000000000dfa711056e335012 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

2018-06-09 12:39 GMT+02:00 Ricardo Wurmus <rekado@elephly.net>= :

Catonano <catonano@gmail.com&g= t; writes:

> Assuming that users read academic articles about programming languages= in
> order to know your way aroung Guile is not reasonable

I fail to see how this follows from Guile=E2=80=99s lack of a macro = stepper.=C2=A0

Then you were not following=

Mark indicated me a paper about the first macro stepper = in history

=C2=A0

To
be honest, I never even heard of a macro stepper before.=C2=A0

I haden't heard of it neither

I = am following Mark's distinction, here, between a macro stepper and macr= oexpand-1

I don't know if other schemes lack macroexp= and-1 too but at this point it wouldn't be relevant anymore
=C2=A0

And I have
never felt the need to read computer science papers to =E2=80=9Cknow my way=
around Guile=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 (I have not studied computer science, so it is= n=E2=80=99t that
my background allowed me to skip papers that are mandatory for other
users of Guile.)

The sentence above seems like an exaggeration to me.

<= br>

Ok, thans for your contribution
=C2=A0

(I say this with no hostility, just with surprise.)

we have a loooong way to go

=C2=A0

> The monad accessing the daemon, how would I delve in it ?

The Guix manual should explain it fully, while assuming that the con= cept
of a monad is known (because that=E2=80=99s not a Guix or Guile invention).= =C2=A0

And how would I know what a monad i= s without reading academic materials ?

Maybe Haskell is = a requirement in order to use Guile//Guix ?

&q= uot;assuming that the concept of a monad is known" is a problem.

Someone would want to _learn_ what a monad is AND how = it can be implemented in scheme, by dissecting this Guix macro based featur= e

Do you think that the code should be kept ob= scure and unaccessible ?

So much for the Emacs of distro= s

--000000000000dfa711056e335012-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Ricardo Wurmus Subject: Re: my latest blog post Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2018 14:14:58 +0200 Message-ID: <878t7o17i5.fsf@elephly.net> References: <87bmcmzfyz.fsf@netris.org> <87lgbpp31h.fsf@netris.org> <87a7s41bwz.fsf@elephly.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:44486) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRcm4-0004M2-6f for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jun 2018 08:15:17 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRcm1-0003FS-0a for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jun 2018 08:15:16 -0400 Received: from sender-of-o51.zoho.com ([135.84.80.216]:21009) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRcm0-0003Ex-Nk for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jun 2018 08:15:12 -0400 In-reply-to: List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+gcggd-guix-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" To: Catonano Cc: guix-devel Hi Catonano, > 2018-06-09 12:39 GMT+02:00 Ricardo Wurmus : > >> >> Catonano writes: >> >> > Assuming that users read academic articles about programming languages= in >> > order to know your way aroung Guile is not reasonable >> >> I fail to see how this follows from Guile=E2=80=99s lack of a macro step= per. > > > Then you were not following > > Mark indicated me a paper about the first macro stepper in history I did follow the discussion and I did see Mark mentioning the paper. Since Guile does not *have* a macro stepper, reading a paper about how a macro stepper was implemented is certainly not a requirement to use Guile. Obviously, to implement a macro stepper it is useful to know how to do this. But implementing a macro stepper is not what a Guile user like myself would ever do. >> And I have >> never felt the need to read computer science papers to =E2=80=9Cknow my = way >> around Guile=E2=80=9D. (I have not studied computer science, so it isn= =E2=80=99t that >> my background allowed me to skip papers that are mandatory for other >> users of Guile.) >> >> The sentence above seems like an exaggeration to me. >> > > Ok, thans for your contribution > > >> (I say this with no hostility, just with surprise.) >> > > we have a loooong way to go I sense a lot of hostility in your responses to me and I don=E2=80=99t know= why that is. The first sentence reads like unwarranted sarcasm to me, because it does not seem to relate to what I wrote; the second sounds belittling, as if my surprise at what seems like an exaggeration to me is evidence of how far behind I am in my efforts to ensure that Guix and Guile a welcoming to newcomers. I=E2=80=99m sorry that you don=E2=80=99t find anything useful in my respons= e above, which relates my personal experience with Guile as someone who is not a computer scientist. I hoped it would be a useful data point. As I find discussions like this exceptionally draining and discouraging, detrimental to my ability to volunteer time to free software, I will take some time off from this discussion after trying to respond to your other message to me in this thread. >> > The monad accessing the daemon, how would I delve in it ? >> >> The Guix manual should explain it fully, while assuming that the concept >> of a monad is known (because that=E2=80=99s not a Guix or Guile inventio= n). > > > And how would I know what a monad is without reading academic materials ? > > Maybe Haskell is a requirement in order to use Guile//Guix ? > > "assuming that the concept of a monad is known" is a problem. By analogy, do you think that assuming the concept of recursion would be a problem? Or the concept of a closure? Would you say that this should be explained in the *Guix* manual? (These are sincere questions.) We are using both of these constructs. We are also using delayed evaluation in the form of streams. Luckily, those are provided as a Guile library and are thus documented in the *Guile* manual. > Someone would want to _learn_ what a monad is AND how it can be implement= ed > in scheme, by dissecting this Guix macro based feature I used =E2=80=9C,expand=E2=80=9D in the past to see the expansion of a macro expression. Here=E2=80=99s an example with the state monad: --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--- scheme@(guile-user)> ,expand (with-monad %state-monad (return 1)) $3 =3D (let ((value 1)) (lambda (state) ((@@ (guix monads) values) value state))) --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- This shows us that returning a monadic value in the state monad is the same as returning a procedure that takes some state and returns it alongside the value. The Guix manual says about the things that we used: --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--- -- Scheme Syntax: with-monad MONAD BODY ... Evaluate any =E2=80=98>>=3D=E2=80=99 or =E2=80=98return=E2=80=99 forms= in BODY as being in MONAD. -- Scheme Syntax: return VAL Return a monadic value that encapsulates VAL. --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- Earlier, it also says something about what monads are all about: --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--- This is where the =E2=80=98(guix monads)=E2=80=99 module comes in. This= module provides a framework for working with =E2=80=9Cmonads=E2=80=9D, and a parti= cularly useful monad for our uses, the =E2=80=9Cstore monad=E2=80=9D. Monads are a= construct that allows two things: associating =E2=80=9Ccontext=E2=80=9D with values (= in our case, the context is the store), and building sequences of computations (here computations include accesses to the store). Values in a monad=E2=80=94val= ues that carry this additional context=E2=80=94are called =E2=80=9Cmonadic valu= es=E2=80=9D; procedures that return such values are called =E2=80=9Cmonadic procedures= =E2=80=9D. --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- We=E2=80=99ve just seen the first part about associating =E2=80=9Ccontext= =E2=80=9D (in this case some state) with values. The second part requires a larger expression to see how this is useful. The Guix manual has an example right there: --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--- -- Scheme Syntax: >>=3D MVAL MPROC ... =E2=80=9CBind=E2=80=9D monadic value MVAL, passing its =E2=80=9Cconten= ts=E2=80=9D to monadic procedures MPROC...(1). There can be one MPROC or several of them, as in this example: (run-with-state (with-monad %state-monad (>>=3D (return 1) (lambda (x) (return (+ 1 x))) (lambda (x) (return (* 2 x))))) 'some-state) =E2=87=92 4 =E2=87=92 some-state --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- So this is an expression that somewhat uselessly computes the number 4 in a context where =E2=80=9Csome-state=E2=80=9D is present. We can use ,ex= pand in the REPL to see how this works, this time with a slightly simpler expression that would compute 1 + 1 in some given context: --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--- scheme@(guile-user)> ,expand (with-monad %state-monad (>>=3D (return 1) (lambda (x) (return (+ 1 x))))) $6 =3D (let ((mvalue (let ((value 1)) (lambda (state) ((@@ (guix monads) values) value state)))) (mproc (lambda (x) (let ((value (+ 1 x))) (lambda (state) ((@@ (guix monads) values) value state)))))) "Bind MVALUE, a value in the state monad, and pass it to MPROC." (lambda (state) ((@@ (guix monads) call-with-values) (lambda () (mvalue state)) (lambda (value state) ((mproc value) state))))) --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- This looks similar to the previous expression (see =E2=80=9Cmvalue=E2=80=9D= ). Looking at the body, we see that this is a procedure that takes some state, computes a new value by passing the state to =E2=80=9Cmvalue=E2=80=9D, and = then passes that to the next action (the last lambda in the original expression). I don=E2=80=99t think that the presence of the relevant documentation in the Guix manual and the existence of a macro-expansion facility should be taken as evidence that we =E2=80=9Cthink that the code should be kept obscu= re and unaccessible=E2=80=9D. I would also like to state, though, that the use of the state monad is hardly essential for the purpose of extending or contributing to Guix. If you find a way to improve the existing documentation, you know from our past interactions that the maintainers and developers are very welcoming of additions or changes to the manual. -- Ricardo From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Ricardo Wurmus Subject: Re: my latest blog post Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2018 12:39:40 +0200 Message-ID: <87a7s41bwz.fsf@elephly.net> References: <87bmcmzfyz.fsf@netris.org> <87lgbpp31h.fsf@netris.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:45717) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRcwN-0006Bu-B3 for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jun 2018 08:25:56 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRcwI-0006r0-DT for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jun 2018 08:25:55 -0400 Received: from sender-of-o51.zoho.com ([135.84.80.216]:21140) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRcwI-0006qs-4u for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jun 2018 08:25:50 -0400 In-reply-to: List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+gcggd-guix-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" To: Catonano Cc: guix-devel Catonano writes: > Assuming that users read academic articles about programming languages in > order to know your way aroung Guile is not reasonable I fail to see how this follows from Guile=E2=80=99s lack of a macro stepper= . To be honest, I never even heard of a macro stepper before. And I have never felt the need to read computer science papers to =E2=80=9Cknow my way around Guile=E2=80=9D. (I have not studied computer science, so it isn=E2= =80=99t that my background allowed me to skip papers that are mandatory for other users of Guile.) The sentence above seems like an exaggeration to me. (I say this with no hostility, just with surprise.) > The monad accessing the daemon, how would I delve in it ? The Guix manual should explain it fully, while assuming that the concept of a monad is known (because that=E2=80=99s not a Guix or Guile invention).= If it fails to do that then the Guix manual should be updated. -- Ricardo From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Catonano Subject: Re: my latest blog post Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2018 15:03:02 +0200 Message-ID: References: <87bmcmzfyz.fsf@netris.org> <87lgbpp31h.fsf@netris.org> <87a7s41bwz.fsf@elephly.net> <878t7o17i5.fsf@elephly.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000003ffe4056e3523c0" Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:49745) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRdWN-00037V-El for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jun 2018 09:03:10 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRdWK-0006Tq-Gr for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jun 2018 09:03:07 -0400 Received: from mail-yw0-x233.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4002:c05::233]:35274) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRdWK-0006Te-6g for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jun 2018 09:03:04 -0400 Received: by mail-yw0-x233.google.com with SMTP id v131-v6so4985560ywg.2 for ; Sat, 09 Jun 2018 06:03:04 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <878t7o17i5.fsf@elephly.net> List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+gcggd-guix-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" To: Ricardo Wurmus Cc: guix-devel --00000000000003ffe4056e3523c0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ricardo, you are right that in my last interaction there was some animosity and the message was below the standard I apologize I see that you are maing an effort to deescalate. I appeciate that. Really I also see that you are suggesting some techical remediation about the store monad And that is probably the most interesting result that came out of this discussion until now After all, I just wanted to understad what this monad macro does. I'm sure you are in god faith and we are just having a misunderstanding due to the fact that we come from different bacgrounds, even if you didn't study computer science In this very moment, I'm not abe to keep interacting lucidly, though Because I lost my cool and I got tired So I can't bring myself to read your technical contribution. I probably need some time to regain my composture I will probably go to the beach to blow some steam off I'll try again starting next monday, if you don't mind So I can be more consequential, hopefully For now, just a few notes The first note is that macro expanding and macro stepping are not the same thing 2018-06-09 14:14 GMT+02:00 Ricardo Wurmus : > > Hi Catonano, > > > 2018-06-09 12:39 GMT+02:00 Ricardo Wurmus : > > > >> > >> Catonano writes: > >> > >> > Assuming that users read academic articles about programming > languages in > >> > order to know your way aroung Guile is not reasonable > >> > >> I fail to see how this follows from Guile=E2=80=99s lack of a macro st= epper. > > > > > > Then you were not following > > > > Mark indicated me a paper about the first macro stepper in history > > I did follow the discussion and I did see Mark mentioning the paper. > Since Guile does not *have* a macro stepper, reading a paper about how a > macro stepper was implemented is certainly not a requirement to use > Guile. Ok. I was following a thought of mine, I had to mae more explicit, probably In my view, hacking a quick and dirt macro stepper and then use it to explore some existing macros *IS* a requirement to use guile Because there are some macro based libraries, so using a macro stepper is a requirement for common usage As I wrote, if you provide a language feature, you need to provide the tooling for it too The fact that Guile has no macro stepper is not enough to thin that using a macro stepper is not a requirement It's enough to think that Guile is missing a fundamental bit But I understand that we can disagree on this Obviously, to implement a macro stepper it is useful to know how > to do this. But implementing a macro stepper is not what a Guile user > like myself would ever do. > Eh. It seemed to me that implementing a macro stepper was reqired to me in order to undertsand some existing macros Maybe your last techical contribution, the one that I can't read rright now, proves this false I'll try again next week and report back Thanks for clarifiyng > >> And I have > >> never felt the need to read computer science papers to =E2=80=9Cknow m= y way > >> around Guile=E2=80=9D. (I have not studied computer science, so it is= n=E2=80=99t that > >> my background allowed me to skip papers that are mandatory for other > >> users of Guile.) > >> > >> The sentence above seems like an exaggeration to me. > >> > > > > Ok, thans for your contribution > > > > > >> (I say this with no hostility, just with surprise.) > >> > > > > we have a loooong way to go > > I sense a lot of hostility in your responses to me and I don=E2=80=99t kn= ow why > that is. The first sentence reads like unwarranted sarcasm to me, > because it does not seem to relate to what I wrote; the second sounds > belittling, as if my surprise at what seems like an exaggeration to me > is evidence of how far behind I am in my efforts to ensure that Guix and > Guile a welcoming to newcomers. > > I=E2=80=99m sorry that you don=E2=80=99t find anything useful in my respo= nse above, > which relates my personal experience with Guile as someone who is not a > computer scientist. I hoped it would be a useful data point. > I' sure it is a data point I'm not sure what you think it means Does it mean that I had it coming ? You think that I indiced David Pirotte in assaulting me in that way ? > As I find discussions like this exceptionally draining and discouraging, > detrimental to my ability to volunteer time to free software, I will > take some time off from this discussion after trying to respond to your > other message to me in this thread. > > >> > The monad accessing the daemon, how would I delve in it ? > >> > >> The Guix manual should explain it fully, while assuming that the conce= pt > >> of a monad is known (because that=E2=80=99s not a Guix or Guile invent= ion). > > > > > > And how would I know what a monad is without reading academic materials= ? > > > > Maybe Haskell is a requirement in order to use Guile//Guix ? > > > > "assuming that the concept of a monad is known" is a problem. > > By analogy, do you think that assuming the concept of recursion would be > a problem? Or the concept of a closure? Would you say that this should > be explained in the *Guix* manual? (These are sincere questions.) > No. I think they should be explained in the Guile manual, though The edit I am proposing about macro stepping is for the Guile manual, not the Guix one > > We are using both of these constructs. We are also using delayed > evaluation in the form of streams. Luckily, those are provided as a > Guile library and are thus documented in the *Guile* manual. > as it shoud be > > > Someone would want to _learn_ what a monad is AND how it can be > implemented > > in scheme, by dissecting this Guix macro based feature > > I used =E2=80=9C,expand=E2=80=9D in the past to see the expansion of a ma= cro > expression. Here=E2=80=99s an example with the state monad: > ok, from here on I couldn't read as I said, I'll try again Only: macro expanding and macr stepping are not the same thing > > --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--- > scheme@(guile-user)> ,expand (with-monad %state-monad (return 1)) > $3 =3D (let ((value 1)) > (lambda (state) > ((@@ (guix monads) values) value state))) > --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- > > This shows us that returning a monadic value in the state monad is the > same as returning a procedure that takes some state and returns it > alongside the value. > > The Guix manual says about the things that we used: > > --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--- > -- Scheme Syntax: with-monad MONAD BODY ... > Evaluate any =E2=80=98>>=3D=E2=80=99 or =E2=80=98return=E2=80=99 for= ms in BODY as being in MONAD. > > -- Scheme Syntax: return VAL > Return a monadic value that encapsulates VAL. > --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- > > > Earlier, it also says something about what monads are all about: > > --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--- > This is where the =E2=80=98(guix monads)=E2=80=99 module comes in. Th= is module > provides a framework for working with =E2=80=9Cmonads=E2=80=9D, and a par= ticularly > useful monad for our uses, the =E2=80=9Cstore monad=E2=80=9D. Monads are= a construct > that allows two things: associating =E2=80=9Ccontext=E2=80=9D with values= (in our case, > the context is the store), and building sequences of computations (here > computations include accesses to the store). Values in a monad=E2=80=94v= alues > that carry this additional context=E2=80=94are called =E2=80=9Cmonadic va= lues=E2=80=9D; > procedures that return such values are called =E2=80=9Cmonadic procedures= =E2=80=9D. > --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- > > We=E2=80=99ve just seen the first part about associating =E2=80=9Ccontext= =E2=80=9D (in this case > some state) with values. The second part requires a larger expression > to see how this is useful. > > The Guix manual has an example right there: > > --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--- > -- Scheme Syntax: >>=3D MVAL MPROC ... > =E2=80=9CBind=E2=80=9D monadic value MVAL, passing its =E2=80=9Ccont= ents=E2=80=9D to monadic > procedures MPROC...(1). There can be one MPROC or several of them, > as in this example: > > (run-with-state > (with-monad %state-monad > (>>=3D (return 1) > (lambda (x) (return (+ 1 x))) > (lambda (x) (return (* 2 x))))) > 'some-state) > > =E2=87=92 4 > =E2=87=92 some-state > --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- > > So this is an expression that somewhat uselessly computes the number 4 > in a context where =E2=80=9Csome-state=E2=80=9D is present. We can use ,= expand in the > REPL to see how this works, this time with a slightly simpler > expression that would compute 1 + 1 in some given context: > > --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--- > scheme@(guile-user)> ,expand (with-monad %state-monad > (>>=3D (return 1) > (lambda (x) (return (+ 1 x))))) > $6 =3D (let ((mvalue > (let ((value 1)) > (lambda (state) > ((@@ (guix monads) values) value state)))) > (mproc (lambda (x) > (let ((value (+ 1 x))) > (lambda (state) > ((@@ (guix monads) values) value state)))))) > "Bind MVALUE, a value in the state monad, and pass it to MPROC." > (lambda (state) > ((@@ (guix monads) call-with-values) > (lambda () (mvalue state)) > (lambda (value state) ((mproc value) state))))) > --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- > > This looks similar to the previous expression (see =E2=80=9Cmvalue=E2=80= =9D). Looking > at the body, we see that this is a procedure that takes some state, > computes a new value by passing the state to =E2=80=9Cmvalue=E2=80=9D, an= d then passes > that to the next action (the last lambda in the original expression). > > I don=E2=80=99t think that the presence of the relevant documentation in = the > Guix manual and the existence of a macro-expansion facility should be > taken as evidence that we =E2=80=9Cthink that the code should be kept obs= cure > and unaccessible=E2=80=9D. > > I would also like to state, though, that the use of the state monad is > hardly essential for the purpose of extending or contributing to Guix. > If you find a way to improve the existing documentation, you know from > our past interactions that the maintainers and developers are very > welcoming of additions or changes to the manual. > > -- > Ricardo > > --00000000000003ffe4056e3523c0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Ricardo,

you are right that in my last interaction there was= some animosity and the message was below the standard

I apolo= gize

I see that you are maing an effort to deescalate. I appec= iate that. Really

I also see that you are suggesting some tech= ical remediation about the store monad

And that is probab= ly the most interesting result that came out of this discussion until now

After all, I just wanted to understad what this monad macr= o does.

I'm sure you are in god faith and we are just= having a misunderstanding due to the fact that we come from different bacg= rounds, even if you didn't study computer science

In this very moment, I'm not abe to keep interacting lucidly, though=

Because I lost my cool and I got tired

So I can&= #39;t bring myself to read your technical contribution.

I prob= ably need some time to regain my composture

I will probably go= to the=C2=A0 beach to blow some steam off

I'll try again = starting next monday, if you don't mind

So I can be more c= onsequential, hopefully

For now, just a few notes

The f= irst note is that macro expanding and macro stepping are not the same thing=

2018-06= -09 14:14 GMT+02:00 Ricardo Wurmus <rekado@elephly.net>:

Hi Catonano,

> 2018-06-09 12:39 GMT+02:00 Ricardo Wurmus <rekado@elephly.net>:
>
>>
>> Catonano <catonano@gmail.= com> writes:
>>
>> > Assuming that users read academic articles about programming = languages in
>> > order to know your way aroung Guile is not reasonable
>>
>> I fail to see how this follows from Guile=E2=80=99s lack of a macr= o stepper.
>
>
> Then you were not following
>
> Mark indicated me a paper about the first macro stepper in history

I did follow the discussion and I did see Mark mentioning the paper.=
Since Guile does not *have* a macro stepper, reading a paper about how a macro stepper was implemented is certainly not a requirement to use
Guile.=C2=A0

Ok. I was following a thought= of mine, I had to mae more explicit, probably

In my view= , hacking a quick and dirt macro stepper and then use it to explore some ex= isting macros *IS* a requirement to use guile

Because the= re are some macro based libraries, so using a macro stepper is a requiremen= t for common usage

As I wrote, if you provide a language = feature, you need to provide the tooling for it too

The f= act that Guile has no macro stepper is not enough to thin that using a macr= o stepper is not a requirement

It's enough to think that = Guile is missing a fundamental bit

=C2=A0

But I= understand that we can disagree on this

Obviously, to implement a macro stepper it is useful to know how<= br> to do this.=C2=A0 But implementing a macro stepper is not what a Guile user=
like myself would ever do.

Eh.

It seemed to me that implementing a macro stepper was reqired to me = in order to undertsand some existing macros

Maybe your la= st techical contribution, the one that I can't read rright now,=C2=A0 p= roves this false

=C2=A0

I'll try again next= week and report back

Thanks for clarifiyng

>> And I have
>> never felt the need to read computer science papers to =E2=80=9Ckn= ow my way
>> around Guile=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 (I have not studied computer science,= so it isn=E2=80=99t that
>> my background allowed me to skip papers that are mandatory for oth= er
>> users of Guile.)
>>
>> The sentence above seems like an exaggeration to me.
>>
>
> Ok, thans for your contribution
>
>
>> (I say this with no hostility, just with surprise.)
>>
>
> we have a loooong way to go

I sense a lot of hostility in your responses to me and I don=E2=80= =99t know why
that is.=C2=A0 The first sentence reads like unwarranted sarcasm to me,
because it does not seem to relate to what I wrote; the second sounds
belittling, as if my surprise at what seems like an exaggeration to me
is evidence of how far behind I am in my efforts to ensure that Guix and Guile a welcoming to newcomers.

I=E2=80=99m sorry that you don=E2=80=99t find anything useful in my respons= e above,
which relates my personal experience with Guile as someone who is not a
computer scientist.=C2=A0 I hoped it would be a useful data point.

I' sure it is a data point

I'm not sure what you think it means

Does it mean t= hat I had it coming ?

You think that I indiced David Pir= otte in assaulting me in that way ?

=C2=A0

As I find discussions like this exceptionally draining and discouraging, detrimental to my ability to volunteer time to free software, I will
take some time off from this discussion after trying to respond to your
other message to me in this thread.

>> > The monad accessing the daemon, how would I delve in it ?
>>
>> The Guix manual should explain it fully, while assuming that the c= oncept
>> of a monad is known (because that=E2=80=99s not a Guix or Guile in= vention).
>
>
> And how would I know what a monad is without reading academic material= s ?
>
> Maybe Haskell is a requirement in order to use Guile//Guix ?
>
> "assuming that the concept of a monad is known" is a problem= .

By analogy, do you think that assuming the concept of recursion woul= d be
a problem?=C2=A0 Or the concept of a closure?=C2=A0 Would you say that this= should
be explained in the *Guix* manual?=C2=A0 (These are sincere questions.)
=

No.
I think they should be explained i= n the Guile manual, though

The edit I am proposing about = macro stepping is for the Guile manual, not the Guix one

=C2= =A0

We are using both of these constructs.=C2=A0 We are also using delayed
evaluation in the form of streams.=C2=A0 Luckily, those are provided as a Guile library and are thus documented in the *Guile* manual.

as it shoud be
=C2=A0

> Someone would want to _learn_ what a monad is AND how it can be implem= ented
> in scheme, by dissecting this Guix macro based feature

I used =E2=80=9C,expand=E2=80=9D in the past to see the expansion of= a macro
expression.=C2=A0 Here=E2=80=99s an example with the state monad:

ok, from here on I couldn't read

as I said, I'll try again

Only: macro expandin= g and macr stepping are not the same thing
=C2=A0

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--= -
scheme@(guile-user)> ,expand (with-monad %state-monad (return 1))
$3 =3D (let ((value 1))
=C2=A0 (lambda (state)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ((@@ (guix monads) values) value state)))
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--= -

This shows us that returning a monadic value in the state monad is the
same as returning a procedure that takes some state and returns it
alongside the value.

The Guix manual says about the things that we used:

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--= -
=C2=A0-- Scheme Syntax: with-monad MONAD BODY ...
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Evaluate any =E2=80=98>>=3D=E2=80=99 or =E2=80=98= return=E2=80=99 forms in BODY as being in MONAD.

=C2=A0-- Scheme Syntax: return VAL
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Return a monadic value that encapsulates VAL.
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--= -

Earlier, it also says something about what monads are all about:

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--= -
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This is where the =E2=80=98(guix monads)=E2=80=99 module comes= in.=C2=A0 This module
provides a framework for working with =E2=80=9Cmonads=E2=80=9D, and a parti= cularly
useful monad for our uses, the =E2=80=9Cstore monad=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 Monads = are a construct
that allows two things: associating =E2=80=9Ccontext=E2=80=9D with values (= in our case,
the context is the store), and building sequences of computations (here
computations include accesses to the store).=C2=A0 Values in a monad=E2=80= =94values
that carry this additional context=E2=80=94are called =E2=80=9Cmonadic valu= es=E2=80=9D;
procedures that return such values are called =E2=80=9Cmonadic procedures= =E2=80=9D.
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--= -

We=E2=80=99ve just seen the first part about associating =E2=80=9Ccontext= =E2=80=9D (in this case
some state) with values.=C2=A0 The second part requires a larger expression=
to see how this is useful.

The Guix manual has an example right there:

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--= -
=C2=A0-- Scheme Syntax: >>=3D MVAL MPROC ...
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=9CBind=E2=80=9D monadic value MVAL, passing its = =E2=80=9Ccontents=E2=80=9D to monadic
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0procedures MPROC...(1).=C2=A0 There can be one MPROC or= several of them,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0as in this example:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (run-with-state
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (with-monad %state-monad =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (>>=3D (retur= n 1)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0(lambda (x) (return (+ 1 x)))
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0(lambda (x) (return (* 2 x)))))
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 'some-state)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=87=92 4
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=87=92 some-state
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--= -

So this is an expression that somewhat uselessly computes the number 4
in a context where =E2=80=9Csome-state=E2=80=9D is present.=C2=A0 We can us= e ,expand in the
REPL to see how this works, this time with a slightly simpler
expression that would compute 1 + 1 in some given context:

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--= -
scheme@(guile-user)> ,expand (with-monad %state-monad
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(>>=3D (return 1)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (lambda (x) (return (+= 1 x)))))
$6 =3D (let ((mvalue
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (let ((value 1))
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (lambda (state)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ((@@ (guix monads) values) value = state))))
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (mproc (lambda (x)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(let ((value (+ 1 x)= ))
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(lambda (stat= e)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0((@@ (= guix monads) values) value state))))))
=C2=A0 "Bind MVALUE, a value in the state monad, and pass it to MPROC.= "
=C2=A0 (lambda (state)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ((@@ (guix monads) call-with-values)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(lambda () (mvalue state))
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(lambda (value state) ((mproc value) state)))))
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--= -

This looks similar to the previous expression (see =E2=80=9Cmvalue=E2=80=9D= ).=C2=A0 Looking
at the body, we see that this is a procedure that takes some state,
computes a new value by passing the state to =E2=80=9Cmvalue=E2=80=9D, and = then passes
that to the next action (the last lambda in the original expression).

I don=E2=80=99t think that the presence of the relevant documentation in th= e
Guix manual and the existence of a macro-expansion facility should be
taken as evidence that we =E2=80=9Cthink that the code should be kept obscu= re
and unaccessible=E2=80=9D.

I would also like to state, though, that the use of the state monad is
hardly essential for the purpose of extending or contributing to Guix.
If you find a way to improve the existing documentation, you know from
our past interactions that the maintainers and developers are very
welcoming of additions or changes to the manual.

--
Ricardo

--00000000000003ffe4056e3523c0-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Catonano Subject: Re: my latest blog post Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2018 15:07:17 +0200 Message-ID: References: <877enaimsn.fsf@fastmail.com> <87po11j46q.fsf@dustycloud.org> <87k1r91hkp.fsf@elephly.net> <877en8171p.fsf@elephly.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000416376056e353272" Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:50307) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRdaT-0004rA-6U for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jun 2018 09:07:22 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRdaR-0000Nw-V4 for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jun 2018 09:07:21 -0400 Received: from mail-yb0-x22d.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4002:c09::22d]:38123) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRdaR-0000NP-Ov for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jun 2018 09:07:19 -0400 Received: by mail-yb0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id q62-v6so5291934ybg.5 for ; Sat, 09 Jun 2018 06:07:19 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <877en8171p.fsf@elephly.net> List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+gcggd-guix-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" To: Ricardo Wurmus Cc: guix-devel , Joshua Branson --000000000000416376056e353272 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2018-06-09 14:24 GMT+02:00 Ricardo Wurmus : > > Catonano writes: > > >> Andy=E2=80=99s time is still limited. What other people can do is dis= cuss > >> *specific* cases on guile-devel and work towards a solution. But plea= se > >> do not demand of others to explain everything in detail. (I=E2=80=99m= directing > >> this at everyone who heeds my advice to go to guile-devel, not at any > >> one person in particular.) In order to have a positive impact you als= o > >> need to learn enough about the state of the art to ensure that the > >> discussions can be productive. > >> > > > > I think I demonstrated I am ready to put some effort into this > > > > And I think this remark is unfair > > I wrote this: > > But please do not demand of others to explain everything in detail. > (I=E2=80=99m directing this at everyone who heeds my advice to go to > guile-devel, not at any one person in particular.) > > Rephrasing: I=E2=80=99d like to point this out to people who take this > opportunity to bemoan the lack of other features or who disagree with > what they think are different priorities. You do not feel addressed if > you know you=E2=80=99ve made efforts in this area. > This is another of your points I can't process now I'll try again later > > > And saying I should come on guile-dev and actually provide what I thin = is > > useful, nowing that I can't (not immediately is not a fair answer eithe= r > > > > Because it's equivalent to a "fuck you" > > Wow. No. > > I think that=E2=80=99s an *extremely* uncharitable reading of what I wrot= e. I > will refrain from further comments in this thread lest what I write will > be misconstrued in a similar fashion. > O, I'll try to clarify this one too. Just not now > > >> With regards to the shouting match on #guile that you linked in your > >> blog post, I can only say that I would have likely stepped in had this > >> happened when I was around. Textual communication certainly should no= t > >> reach these levels of apparent aggression. > >> > > > > What do you mean with "apparent" ? > > I=E2=80=99m pretty bad at gauging emotion in textual communication and it= =E2=80=99s > generally not easy to infer the intended tone in short text messages. > That said, the exchange you linked to appeared to me to be of an > aggressive nature. That=E2=80=99s what I mean by =E2=80=9Capparent=E2=80= =9D. > It was of an aggressive nature I was assaulted in an arbitrary, unwarranted and uncalled for way It was wild Because I had used G-golf as an example I had also used Skribilo as another example You now what Ludo did ? Instead of calling me an hopeless moron unwilling to learn, he went and updated Skribilo, without saying a single word I noticed And I appreciated it So, yes, it was aggressie indeed Again. I'll try to be more complete later --000000000000416376056e353272 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

2018-06-09 14:24 GMT+02:00 Ricardo Wurmus <rekado@elephl= y.net>:

Catonano <catonano@gmail.com&g= t; writes:

>> Andy=E2=80=99s time is still limited.=C2=A0 What other people can = do is discuss
>> *specific* cases on guile-devel and work towards a solution.=C2=A0= But please
>> do not demand of others to explain everything in detail.=C2=A0 (I= =E2=80=99m directing
>> this at everyone who heeds my advice to go to guile-devel, not at = any
>> one person in particular.)=C2=A0 In order to have a positive impac= t you also
>> need to learn enough about the state of the art to ensure that the=
>> discussions can be productive.
>>
>
> I think I demonstrated I am ready to put some effort into this
>
> And I think this remark is unfair

I wrote this:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0But please do not demand of others to explain everything in de= tail.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(I=E2=80=99m directing this at everyone who heeds my advice to= go to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0guile-devel, not at any one person in particular.)

Rephrasing: I=E2=80=99d like to point this out to people who take th= is
opportunity to bemoan the lack of other features or who disagree with
what they think are different priorities.=C2=A0 You do not feel addressed i= f
you know you=E2=80=99ve made efforts in this area.

This is another of your points I can't process now

<= /div>

I'll try again later

=C2=A0

> And saying I should come on guile-dev and actually provide what I thin= is
> useful, nowing that I can't (not immediately is not a fair answer = either
>
> Because it's equivalent to a "fuck you"

Wow.=C2=A0 No.

I think that=E2=80=99s an *extremely* uncharitable reading of what I wrote.= =C2=A0 I
will refrain from further comments in this thread lest what I write will be misconstrued in a similar fashion.

O= , I'll try to clarify this one too.

Just not now

= =C2=A0

>> With regards to the shouting match on #guile that you linked in yo= ur
>> blog post, I can only say that I would have likely stepped in had = this
>> happened when I was around.=C2=A0 Textual communication certainly = should not
>> reach these levels of apparent aggression.
>>
>
> What do you mean with "apparent" ?

I=E2=80=99m pretty bad at gauging emotion in textual communication a= nd it=E2=80=99s
generally not easy to infer the intended tone in short text messages.
That said, the exchange you linked to appeared to me to be of an
aggressive nature.=C2=A0 That=E2=80=99s what I mean by =E2=80=9Capparent=E2= =80=9D.

It was of an aggressive nat= ure

I was assaulted in an arbitrary, unwarranted and unca= lled for way

It was wild

Because I had = used G-golf as an example

I had also used Skribilo as ano= ther example

You now what Ludo did ?

In= stead of calling me an hopeless moron unwilling to learn, he went and updat= ed Skribilo, without saying a single word

I noticed

And I appreciated it

So, yes, it was aggress= ie indeed

Again. I'll try to be more complete later

--000000000000416376056e353272-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Christopher Lemmer Webber Subject: Re: my latest blog post Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2018 08:51:05 -0500 Message-ID: <87d0x0hxva.fsf@dustycloud.org> References: <877enaimsn.fsf@fastmail.com> <87po11j46q.fsf@dustycloud.org> <87k1r91hkp.fsf@elephly.net> <877en8171p.fsf@elephly.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:54758) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fReGt-0003b0-4m for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jun 2018 09:51:12 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fReGp-0005Uo-7T for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jun 2018 09:51:11 -0400 Received: from dustycloud.org ([50.116.34.160]:33910) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fReGp-0005Ua-2s for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jun 2018 09:51:07 -0400 In-reply-to: <877en8171p.fsf@elephly.net> List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+gcggd-guix-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" To: Ricardo Wurmus Cc: guix-devel , Joshua Branson Ricardo Wurmus writes: > Catonano writes: > > I wrote this: > > But please do not demand of others to explain everything in detail. > (I=E2=80=99m directing this at everyone who heeds my advice to go to > guile-devel, not at any one person in particular.) > > Rephrasing: I=E2=80=99d like to point this out to people who take this > opportunity to bemoan the lack of other features or who disagree with > what they think are different priorities. You do not feel addressed if > you know you=E2=80=99ve made efforts in this area. > >> And saying I should come on guile-dev and actually provide what I thin= is >> useful, nowing that I can't (not immediately is not a fair answer eith= er >> >> Because it's equivalent to a "fuck you" I think at a moment like this it's important to step back a moment... Wikipedia has a good philosophy here called "Assume Good Faith": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Assume_good_faith Making Guile into a friendlier environment for newcomers is important. But if we are to have a friendly environment, the only way that can happen is if we believe that in general we have a culture of collaboration. That doesn't mean we don't hold people accountable if they are clearly demonstrating disrespectful or hostile behavior. But there's no way to have a collaborative environment if we don't try to give people the benefit of the doubt that they wish to work together to improve things. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Christopher Lemmer Webber Subject: Re: my latest blog post Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2018 10:29:13 -0500 Message-ID: <87a7s4htbq.fsf@dustycloud.org> References: <877enaimsn.fsf@fastmail.com> <87po11j46q.fsf@dustycloud.org> <87k1r91hkp.fsf@elephly.net> <877en8171p.fsf@elephly.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:37945) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRfnp-0001sS-Ur for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jun 2018 11:29:18 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRfnm-0000j9-Pn for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jun 2018 11:29:17 -0400 Received: from dustycloud.org ([50.116.34.160]:34098) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRfnm-0000iz-KE for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jun 2018 11:29:14 -0400 In-reply-to: List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+gcggd-guix-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" To: Catonano , guix-devel Catonano writes: > Instead of calling me an hopeless moron unwilling to learn, he went and > updated Skribilo, without saying a single word > > I noticed > > And I appreciated it > > So, yes, it was aggressie indeed > > Again. I'll try to be more complete later I think it's great that Ludovic responded so nicely with Skribilo. Though I read what Ricardo wrote... I think he never called you anything of the sort, and if I had read only your email I would have gotten the impression that he had (I am not sure if this is what you intended here, maybe you were referring to something else, but I think it applies to at least the comment where you interpreted what Ricardo said as "f--- you"). If I were in Ricardo's situation I think I would feel very hurt. I think part of the conflict here is you're saying you're seeing some things that you think are clearly missing from the project, and here are some things that you'd like to see changed, and here are some things you are offering to change. And that I think is very good. But you are also identifying some things you'd like to see changed that you don't yet know how to change. Ricardo is suggesting that you learn more about them and jump in to help change them. Is this a hostile thing to do? Well, if it were used as a way to dismiss the request entirely, probably. But what I think Ricardo is trying to say is that the Guile community is resource-strapped (which it is, being run by volunteers). We cannot demand that anyone who is volunteering work on a specific thing, but we can ask and make suggestions. And one excellent way to make changes happen is to learn and step into the role of making them happen. Not everyone can, and this is true and I fully agree. To that end, I think that's where bug reports come in, and making an appeal to the community to work on a specific thing is useful. But I also think that it is true that everyone can help in some ways, and that we also remember that everyone is volunteering. We cannot expect that everything that we would like done will be done because all volunteers only have so much energy. To that end, a call to "please help" is not necessarily dismissive... it may be a call to ask you to be empowered, and a call to say that your contributions would be welcome and appreciated. Most importantly, I think we should not put negative words in another person's mouth that they did not say or intend. I linked "Assume Good Faith" earlier because I think we cannot build a strong community together without doing so. To put more negative words in place of what someone said puts them on the defensive and makes it hard to come towards further progress. This is a collaborative game... let's recognize that, and all work together to make it a better place. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: myglc2@gmail.com Subject: Re: my latest blog post Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2018 18:49:04 -0400 Message-ID: <87in6ra84f.fsf@g1.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:60425) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRmfW-0003ug-8W for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jun 2018 18:49:11 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRmfT-0001Kk-6N for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jun 2018 18:49:10 -0400 Received: from mail-qt0-x22d.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::22d]:36942) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRmfT-0001KL-0a for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jun 2018 18:49:07 -0400 Received: by mail-qt0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id q13-v6so17026436qtp.4 for ; Sat, 09 Jun 2018 15:49:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: (catonano@gmail.com's message of "Thu, 7 Jun 2018 17:25:06 +0200") List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+gcggd-guix-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" To: Catonano Cc: guix-devel On 06/07/2018 at 17:25 Catonano writes: > I just published my latest blog post > > In this post I discuss Guix > > And I discuss Guile too > > I understand that the language is strong and I expect someone to be upset > > But I feel this is due > > Happy reading > > http://catonano.v22018025836661967.nicesrv.de/the-gnu-community.html Hi Catonano, Thank you for taking the time to contribute your thoughts. I am sorry to see you getting so beat up by the responses. Unfortunately the nit-picking of criticisms and the "we are busy, why don't you dig in and fix it" responses occur too often on the Guix lists. Such responses are fundamentally unhelpful: A defensive response of counter-criticism that spirals out of control buries the original input and alienates potential new contributors. I agree with you that the suggestion that you dig in and fix something you are struggling with is a fundamentally unfriendly response. I appreciate the effort you made to learn Guix and the risk you took to report on the problems you experienced. I am interested in getting to the root causes of your frustration. I re-read your post and emails. Would it be fair to say ... 1) The monad/daemon/store is presented as central to Guix and is very difficult to understand. If a Guix user really needs to understand it, it needs to be explained better. 2) Sending Guix users upstream for Guile support is not working. If these are correct, the reality is that only a few people on the planet are in a position to address these issues. The rest of us have to hope that they can see why it is important to stop coding long enough to do so, perhaps in collaboration with a confused user or two ;-) - George From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Mark H Weaver Subject: Re: my latest blog post Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2018 20:51:59 -0400 Message-ID: <87muw3mpjk.fsf@netris.org> References: <87in6ra84f.fsf@g1.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:48507) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRobt-0000ga-Re for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jun 2018 20:53:34 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRobo-0003bh-Sd for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jun 2018 20:53:33 -0400 Received: from world.peace.net ([64.112.178.59]:52718) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRobo-0003UG-OQ for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jun 2018 20:53:28 -0400 In-Reply-To: <87in6ra84f.fsf@g1.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> (myglc2's message of "Sat, 09 Jun 2018 18:49:04 -0400") List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+gcggd-guix-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" To: myglc2@gmail.com Cc: guix-devel myglc2@gmail.com writes: > On 06/07/2018 at 17:25 Catonano writes: > >> I just published my latest blog post >> >> In this post I discuss Guix >> >> And I discuss Guile too >> >> I understand that the language is strong and I expect someone to be upset >> >> But I feel this is due >> >> Happy reading >> >> http://catonano.v22018025836661967.nicesrv.de/the-gnu-community.html > > Hi Catonano, > > Thank you for taking the time to contribute your thoughts. I am sorry to > see you getting so beat up by the responses. Unfortunately the > nit-picking of criticisms and the "we are busy, why don't you dig in and > fix it" responses occur too often on the Guix lists. > > Such responses are fundamentally unhelpful: A defensive response of > counter-criticism that spirals out of control buries the original input > and alienates potential new contributors. I agree with you that the > suggestion that you dig in and fix something you are struggling with is > a fundamentally unfriendly response. What kind of response would you consider acceptable? I suppose the most helpful response would be for one of us to volunteer our time to fix the bug, or to implement the feature you desire. Are there any other acceptable responses, in your view? Mark From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Pjotr Prins Subject: Re: my latest blog post Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2018 08:55:55 +0200 Message-ID: <20180610065555.dhqv5vzp6njsoziy@thebird.nl> References: <87in6ra84f.fsf@g1.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> <87muw3mpjk.fsf@netris.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:37678) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRuGg-00022I-Ui for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 02:56:04 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRuGc-0007at-2w for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 02:56:03 -0400 Received: from mail.thebird.nl ([94.142.245.5]:37044) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRuGb-0007aR-PE for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 02:55:58 -0400 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87muw3mpjk.fsf@netris.org> List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+gcggd-guix-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" To: Mark H Weaver Cc: guix-devel , myglc2@gmail.com On Sat, Jun 09, 2018 at 08:51:59PM -0400, Mark H Weaver wrote: > myglc2@gmail.com writes: > > Thank you for taking the time to contribute your thoughts. I am sorry to > > see you getting so beat up by the responses. Unfortunately the > > nit-picking of criticisms and the "we are busy, why don't you dig in and > > fix it" responses occur too often on the Guix lists. > > > > Such responses are fundamentally unhelpful: A defensive response of > > counter-criticism that spirals out of control buries the original input > > and alienates potential new contributors. I agree with you that the > > suggestion that you dig in and fix something you are struggling with is > > a fundamentally unfriendly response. > > What kind of response would you consider acceptable? > > I suppose the most helpful response would be for one of us to volunteer > our time to fix the bug, or to implement the feature you desire. > > Are there any other acceptable responses, in your view? > > Mark And here we arrive at a fundamental problem that all *complex* free software projects that have with many users. And these discussions end up hurting/upsetting everyone involved! The fact is that only a few people really understand any chosen part of the project. And these people tend to have day jobs, families and work on the project in their spare time. In that spare time (maybe only a few hours a week) they make choices what to work on - and, yes, it tends to be what they think most important. Not what others think most important. The Clojure developers are considered haughty and give others the cold shoulder. The Dlang people are very open, and get a lot of abuse and kranks on their forum in return. You just can't win!! It is easy to find examples about this. Some projects, notably Elixir, are exceptionally good at the balancing act. But, it is not for everyone. If you take Guile, what started this thread, it is really one core language maintainer. What talent! Nothing to stop you from jumping in... I think Guix is a great project. Not only does it scale (ref. the number of weekly contributors), the maintainers do a good job of being nice where it matters. Guix had a community day at FOSDEM and out of that came the recent work on 'guix pull' which is a great improvement, ultimately asked for by the user community! I think that is amazingly good. Mark, indeed, from a contributor perspective the natural response is to volunteer work on a topic users ask for. Since we write code, we think in terms of responding in code. But that is not what this thread is about. Here we have users who want *attention* for their concern(s). My response to such users is two-fold: (1) dig in and prove you understand the issue first. A lot of response goes by merit you acquire. People tend to spend time on people they like/respect. So, George, it is not a knee-jerk reaction. It is easy to talk, much less easy to do. And coders and project maintainers know that. And (2) bring up real issues on the bug tracker and try to fix them. That way you get attention. So, yes, dig in and try to fix it ;) As in chess or football, people who acquire merit get taken seriously. Not the person shouting on the side-line - unless they are respected in some other way (maybe by giving money or other resources). Talk is cheap. Coding is hard. We are always balancing this. I don't contribute much to Guix at this point (other than talk ;), but we face the exact same problems in other projects I am involved in. I get most upset by the sense of entitlement that people have just because they *use* my work. Many an E-mail I wrote, but did not send, to users, just to vent steam. I have a feeling I am not the only one. I.e., it is not easy running a free software project. We want and like our users, but not at all cost. I think we should close this topic unless there are concrete suggestions on how to improve and scale Guix development. As George writes, we can encourage new contributors and users more, but I doubt the route is to take core contributors away from their work. I think the route is to improve our web presence by tutorials, blogs and internationalization. And, in fact, those already are priorities. Pj. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Catonano Subject: Re: my latest blog post Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2018 09:58:29 +0200 Message-ID: References: <87in6ra84f.fsf@g1.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> <87muw3mpjk.fsf@netris.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000af91fe056e44ffca" Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:42718) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRvFA-0008Gs-9z for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 03:58:33 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRvF9-0008Uo-Dz for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 03:58:32 -0400 Received: from mail-yb0-x22c.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4002:c09::22c]:36835) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRvF9-0008Ub-7L for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 03:58:31 -0400 Received: by mail-yb0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id x128-v6so5491078ybg.3 for ; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 00:58:30 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87muw3mpjk.fsf@netris.org> List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+gcggd-guix-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" To: Mark H Weaver Cc: guix-devel , myglc2 --000000000000af91fe056e44ffca Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" 2018-06-10 2:51 GMT+02:00 Mark H Weaver : > myglc2@gmail.com writes: > > > Are there any other acceptable responses, in your view? > I already proposed a way forward and I even asked you if you would refuse to merge it I see you attitute towards that, now. Also: yesterday night, before going to bed, I tought that you were nt answering because you were "busy" Maybe you were in a different time zone the lack of an answer is not necessarily aggresion, someone of you noted But then, when someone agrees with me, you reply instantly, with the usual pathetic superiority and smugness There, you have the Guile utter failure You are a asshole, Mark Regards --000000000000af91fe056e44ffca Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

2018-06-10 2:51 GMT+02:00 Mark H Weaver = <mhw@netris.org&= gt;:

myglc2@gmail.com writes:

=C2=A0

Are there any other acceptable responses, in your view?

I already proposed a way forward and I even asked you if y= ou would refuse to merge it

I see you attitute towards th= at, now.

Als= o:

yesterday night, before going to= bed, I tought that you were nt answering because you were "busy"=

Maybe you were in a different time= zone

the lack of an answer is not = necessarily aggresion, someone of you noted

But then, when someone agrees with me, you reply instantly, with t= he usual pathetic superiority and smugness

There, you have the Guile utter failure

You are a asshole, Mark

Regards

--000000000000af91fe056e44ffca-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Catonano Subject: Re: my latest blog post Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2018 10:07:26 +0200 Message-ID: References: <87in6ra84f.fsf@g1.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b93a02056e451f66" Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:43976) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRvNp-0000mi-R8 for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 04:07:31 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRvNo-00038M-FU for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 04:07:29 -0400 Received: from mail-yw0-x22e.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4002:c05::22e]:43077) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRvNo-00038H-8R for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 04:07:28 -0400 Received: by mail-yw0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id r19-v6so5409621ywc.10 for ; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 01:07:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87in6ra84f.fsf@g1.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+gcggd-guix-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" To: myglc2 Cc: guix-devel --000000000000b93a02056e451f66 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" 2018-06-10 0:49 GMT+02:00 : > On 06/07/2018 at 17:25 Catonano writes: > > > I just published my latest blog post > > > > In this post I discuss Guix > > > > And I discuss Guile too > > > > I understand that the language is strong and I expect someone to be upset > > > > But I feel this is due > > > > Happy reading > > > > http://catonano.v22018025836661967.nicesrv.de/the-gnu-community.html > > Hi Catonano, > > Thank you for taking the time to contribute your thoughts. I am sorry to > see you getting so beat up by the responses. Unfortunately the > nit-picking of criticisms and the "we are busy, why don't you dig in and > fix it" responses occur too often on the Guix lists. > > Such responses are fundamentally unhelpful: A defensive response of > counter-criticism that spirals out of control buries the original input > and alienates potential new contributors. I agree with you that the > suggestion that you dig in and fix something you are struggling with is > a fundamentally unfriendly response. > > I appreciate the effort you made to learn Guix and the risk you took to > report on the problems you experienced. I am interested in getting to > the root causes of your frustration. I re-read your post and > emails. Would it be fair to say ... > > 1) The monad/daemon/store is presented as central to Guix and is very > difficult to understand. If a Guix user really needs to understand it, > it needs to be explained better. > > 2) Sending Guix users upstream for Guile support is not working. > > If these are correct, the reality is that only a few people on the > planet are in a position to address these issues. The rest of us have to > hope that they can see why it is important to stop coding long enough to > do so, perhaps in collaboration with a confused user or two ;-) > > - George > Thank you George, I appreciate this I alredy had 2 people writing to me _in private_ acknowledging my efforts I invited them to "come out" but they didn't So much for Guile friendliness People are scared to speak their minds Now, don't worry I won't revelate who you are I just want to record the sorry state of this community --000000000000b93a02056e451f66 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

2018-06-10 0:49 GMT+02:00 <myglc2@gmail.com>:

On 06/07/20= 18 at 17:25 Catonano writes:

> I just published my latest blog post
>
> In this post I discuss Guix
>
> And I discuss Guile too
>
> I understand that the language is strong and I expect someone to be up= set
>
> But I feel this is due
>
> Happy reading
>
> http://catonano.v22018= 025836661967.nicesrv.de/the-gnu-community.html

Hi Catonano,

Thank you for taking the time to contribute your thoughts. I am sorry to see you getting so beat up by the responses.=C2=A0 Unfortunately the
nit-picking of criticisms and the "we are busy, why don't you dig = in and
fix it" responses occur too often on the Guix lists.

Such responses are fundamentally unhelpful: A defensive response of
counter-criticism that spirals out of control buries the original input
and alienates potential new contributors. I agree with you that the
suggestion that you dig in and fix something you are struggling with is
a fundamentally unfriendly response.

I appreciate the effort you made to learn Guix and the risk you took to
report on the problems you experienced. I am interested in getting to
the root causes of your frustration. I re-read your post and
emails. Would it be fair to say ...

1) The monad/daemon/store is presented as central to Guix and is very
difficult to understand. If a Guix user really needs to understand it,
it needs to be explained better.

2) Sending Guix users upstream for Guile support is not working.

If these are correct, the reality is that only a few people on the
planet are in a position to address these issues. The rest of us have to hope that they can see why it is important to stop coding long enough to do so, perhaps in collaboration with a confused user or two ;-)

- George

Thank you George, I= appreciate this

I alredy had 2 peo= ple writing to me _in private_ acknowledging my efforts

I invited them to "come out" but they didn&#= 39;t

So much for Guile friendliness=

People are scared to speak their m= inds

Now, don't worry I won'= ;t revelate who you are

I just want= to record the sorry state of this community

--000000000000b93a02056e451f66-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Nils Gillmann Subject: Re: my latest blog post [everyone, please take a cooldown break] Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2018 08:17:54 +0000 Message-ID: <20180610081754.u3xti5tcvyl6l3tq@abyayala> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:45242) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRvXN-0002D5-Ve for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 04:17:22 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRvXN-0007DN-2n for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 04:17:21 -0400 Received: from conspiracy.of.n0.is ([2a01:4f8:1c0c:7ad0::1]:45724) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRvXM-0007Cl-Q9 for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 04:17:21 -0400 Received: by conspiracy.of.n0.is (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id b32effad (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256:NO) for ; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 08:17:18 +0000 (UTC) Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+gcggd-guix-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" To: guix-devel Hi, I think it would be best if everyone involved would cool down for a couple of days, restructure their thoughts and reflect on this thread. Look at what they are doing, and at how they are reacting to other peoples reaction. This topic is getting quiet heated, and other than the maintainers we do not have established some kind of mderation. It can be hard to discuss some topics online. Text can sometimes fail to transport what we attampt to express, and I have seen people step away from projects because of this. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Catonano Subject: Re: my latest blog post Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2018 11:07:21 +0200 Message-ID: References: <87in6ra84f.fsf@g1.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> <87muw3mpjk.fsf@netris.org> <20180610065555.dhqv5vzp6njsoziy@thebird.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f62d28056e45f586" Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:50595) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRwJo-0006lr-Tu for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 05:07:27 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRwJn-0002x3-2T for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 05:07:24 -0400 Received: from mail-yw0-x22a.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4002:c05::22a]:39909) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRwJm-0002wk-RV for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 05:07:22 -0400 Received: by mail-yw0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id 81-v6so5431085ywb.6 for ; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 02:07:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20180610065555.dhqv5vzp6njsoziy@thebird.nl> List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+gcggd-guix-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" To: Pjotr Prins Cc: guix-devel , myglc2 --000000000000f62d28056e45f586 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" 2018-06-10 8:55 GMT+02:00 Pjotr Prins : > On Sat, Jun 09, 2018 at 08:51:59PM -0400, Mark H Weaver wrote: > > myglc2@gmail.com writes: > > > Thank you for taking the time to contribute your thoughts. I am sorry > to > > > see you getting so beat up by the responses. Unfortunately the > > > nit-picking of criticisms and the "we are busy, why don't you dig in > and > > > fix it" responses occur too often on the Guix lists. > > > > > > Such responses are fundamentally unhelpful: A defensive response of > > > counter-criticism that spirals out of control buries the original input > > > and alienates potential new contributors. I agree with you that the > > > suggestion that you dig in and fix something you are struggling with is > > > a fundamentally unfriendly response. > > > > What kind of response would you consider acceptable? > > > > I suppose the most helpful response would be for one of us to volunteer > > our time to fix the bug, or to implement the feature you desire. > > > > Are there any other acceptable responses, in your view? > > > > Mark > > And here we arrive at a fundamental problem that all *complex* free > software projects that have with many users. And these discussions end > up hurting/upsetting everyone involved! > > The fact is that only a few people really understand any chosen part > of the project. > > And these people tend to have day jobs, families and work on the > project in their spare time. In that spare time (maybe only a few > hours a week) they make choices what to work on - and, yes, it tends > to be what they think most important. Not what others think most > important. The Clojure developers are considered haughty and give > others the cold shoulder. The Dlang people are very open, and get a > lot of abuse and kranks on their forum in return. You just can't win!! > It is easy to find examples about this. Some projects, notably Elixir, > are exceptionally good at the balancing act. But, it is not for > everyone. If you take Guile, what started this thread, it is really > one core language maintainer. What talent! Nothing to stop you from > jumping in... > > I think Guix is a great project. Not only does it scale (ref. > the number of weekly contributors), the maintainers do a good job of > being nice where it matters. Guix had a community day at FOSDEM and out > of that came the recent work on 'guix pull' which is a great > improvement, ultimately asked for by the user community! I think that > is amazingly good. > > Mark, indeed, from a contributor perspective the natural response is > to volunteer work on a topic users ask for. Since we write code, we > think in terms of responding in code. But that is not what this thread > is about. Here we have users who want *attention* for their > concern(s). Ok. So ... ? > My response to such users is two-fold: (1) dig in and prove > you understand the issue first. A lot of response goes by merit you > acquire. People tend to spend time on people they like/respect. So, > George, it is not a knee-jerk reaction. It is easy to talk, much less > easy to do. And coders and project maintainers know that. And (2) > bring up real issues on the bug tracker and try to fix them. That way > you get attention. > > So, yes, dig in and try to fix it ;) > Ah, I see So: nothing. Pjotr I ALREADY offered a contribution The manual discusses some internal APIs in a paragraph about something else That's unrespectful of reader's time I proposed some edits I keep reading, all around, that also not coding contributions are valuable Are they ? I also argued that macros are a part of scheme but the debugging infrastructure doesn't cover them, at all But of course, this is "talking", maybe I'm too entitled > As in chess or football, people who acquire merit get taken seriously. > Not the person shouting on the side-line - unless they are respected > in some other way (maybe by giving money or other resources). > I'm glad I'm flushing out, people You are expressing all your jerkiness in all its glory :-) > Talk is cheap. Coding is hard. Thinking is even harder We are always balancing this. I don't > contribute much to Guix at this point (other than talk ;), but we face > the exact same problems in other projects I am involved in. I get most > upset by the sense of entitlement that people have just because they > *use* my work. Many an E-mail I wrote, but did not send, to users, > just to vent steam. I have a feeling I am not the only one. I.e., it > is not easy running a free software project. We want and like our > users, but not at all cost. > All costs ? I repeat: the manual sucks and I proposed an edit to make it suck a bit less I think we should close this topic unless there are concrete > suggestions on how to improve and scale Guix development. As George > writes, we can encourage new contributors and users more, like you're doing with me ? > but I doubt > the route is to take core contributors away from their work. Their work would be, as George argued, to code a bit less and do some home keeping a bit more > I think > the route is to improve our web presence by tutorials, blogs and > internationalization. And, in fact, those already are priorities. > good luck By the way, a third person wrote me in private right now telling that Mark was an asshole to them too and they stopped contributing to guix altogether They made a conduct report but nothing happened, eventually they had to talk to Ludo directly It seems to me, Potr, tat the ones who should be doing their homewor is not me I'm doing even too much for you --000000000000f62d28056e45f586 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

2018-06-10 8:55 GMT+02:00 Pjotr Prins <pjotr.public12@thebird.= nl>:

On Sat, Jun 09, = 2018 at 08:51:59PM -0400, Mark H Weaver wrote:
> myglc2@gmail.com= writes:
> > Thank you for taking the time to contribute your thoughts. I am s= orry to
> > see you getting so beat up by the responses.=C2=A0 Unfortunately = the
> > nit-picking of criticisms and the "we are busy, why don'= t you dig in and
> > fix it" responses occur too often on the Guix lists.
> >
> > Such responses are fundamentally unhelpful: A defensive response = of
> > counter-criticism that spirals out of control buries the original= input
> > and alienates potential new contributors. I agree with you that t= he
> > suggestion that you dig in and fix something you are struggling w= ith is
> > a fundamentally unfriendly response.
>
> What kind of response would you consider acceptable?
>
> I suppose the most helpful response would be for one of us to voluntee= r
> our time to fix the bug, or to implement the feature you desire.
>
> Are there any other acceptable responses, in your view?
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Mark

And here we arrive at a fundamental problem that all *complex* free<= br> software projects that have with many users. And these discussions end
up hurting/upsetting everyone involved!

The fact is that only a few people really understand any chosen part
of the project.

And these people tend to have day jobs, families and work on the
project in their spare time. In that spare time (maybe only a few
hours a week) they make choices what to work on - and, yes, it tends
to be what they think most important. Not what others think most
important. The Clojure developers are considered haughty and give
others the cold shoulder.=C2=A0 The Dlang people are very open, and get a lot of abuse and kranks on their forum in return. You just can't win!!<= br> It is easy to find examples about this. Some projects, notably Elixir,
are exceptionally good at the balancing act. But, it is not for
everyone. If you take Guile, what started this thread, it is really
one core language maintainer. What talent! Nothing to stop you from
jumping in...

I think Guix is a great project. Not only does it scale (ref.
the number of weekly contributors), the maintainers do a good job of
being nice where it matters. Guix had a community day at FOSDEM and out
of that came the recent work on 'guix pull' which is a great
improvement, ultimately asked for by the user community! I think that
is amazingly good.

Mark, indeed, from a contributor perspective the natural response is
to volunteer work on a topic users ask for. Since we write code, we
think in terms of responding in code. But that is not what this thread
is about. Here we have users who want *attention* for their
concern(s).

Ok. So ... ?

=C2= =A0

My response to such users is two-fo= ld: (1) dig in and prove
you understand the issue first. A lot of response goes by merit you
acquire. People tend to spend time on people they like/respect. So,
George, it is not a knee-jerk reaction. It is easy to talk, much less
easy to do. And coders and project maintainers know that. And (2)
bring up real issues on the bug tracker and try to fix them. That way
you get attention.

So, yes, dig in and try to fix it ;)

Ah= , I see

So: nothing.

Pjotr I ALREADY o= ffered a contribution

The manual discusses some internal = APIs in a paragraph about something else

That's unres= pectful of reader's time

I proposed some edits

I keep reading, all around, that also not coding contributions = are valuable

Are they ?

I al= so argued that macros are a part of scheme but the debugging infrastructure= doesn't cover them, at all

But of course, this is &q= uot;talking", maybe I'm too entitled
=C2=A0

<= /div>

As in chess or football, people who acquire merit get taken seriously.
Not the person shouting on the side-line - unless they are respected
in some other way (maybe by giving money or other resources).

I'm glad I'm flushing out, people

You are expressing all your jerkiness in all its glory :-)

<= /div>
=C2=A0
Talk is cheap. Coding is hard.

Thinking is= even harder

We are always = balancing this. I don't
contribute much to Guix at this point (other than talk ;), but we face
the exact same problems in other projects I am involved in. I get most
upset by the sense of entitlement that people have just because they
*use* my=C2=A0 work. Many an E-mail I wrote, but did not send, to users, just to vent steam. I have a feeling I am not the only one. I.e., it
is not easy running a free software project. We want and like our
users, but not at all cost.

All costs ?=

I repeat: the manual sucks and I proposed an edit to mak= e it suck a bit less

I think we should close this topic unless there are concrete
suggestions on how to improve and scale Guix development. As George
writes, we can encourage new contributors and users more,
=
like you're doing with me ?
=C2=A0
but I doubt
the route is to take core contributors away from their work.

<= div>

Their work would be, as George argued, to code a bit les= s and do some home keeping a bit more

=C2=A0

I think
the route is to improve our web presence by tutorials, blogs and
internationalization. And, in fact, those already are priorities.

good luck

By the way, a third = person wrote me in private right now telling that Mark was an asshole to th= em too and they stopped contributing to guix altogether

T= hey made a conduct report but nothing happened, eventually they had to talk= to Ludo directly

It seems to me, Potr, tat the ones who = should be doing their homewor is not me

I'm doing eve= n too much for you

--000000000000f62d28056e45f586-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Ricardo Wurmus Subject: Re: my latest blog post Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2018 11:26:16 +0200 Message-ID: <87y3fnyouu.fsf@elephly.net> References: <87in6ra84f.fsf@g1.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> <87muw3mpjk.fsf@netris.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:52783) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRwcS-0000VS-K6 for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 05:26:41 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRwcP-0000R0-6m for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 05:26:40 -0400 In-Reply-To: List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+gcggd-guix-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" To: Catonano Cc: guix-devel Catonano, this language is not at all acceptable anywhere on Guix as you can see by referencing the Code of Conduct. --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--- Examples of unacceptable behavior by participants include: * The use of sexualized language or imagery and unwelcome sexual attention = or advances * Trolling, insulting/derogatory comments, and personal or political attacks * Public or private harassment * Publishing others=E2=80=99 private information, such as a physical or ele= ctronic address, without explicit permission * Other conduct which could reasonably be considered inappropriate in a professional setting --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- It is one thing to call for a more welcoming community and quite another to call people names and to assert that they act in bad faith as you have been doing in the past days. Please stop right now. I encourage all to re-read the Code of Conduct. You can find it in the Guix git repository or online here: http://git.savannah.nongnu.org/cgit/guix.git/plain/CODE-OF-CONDUCT -- Ricardo From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Catonano Subject: Re: my latest blog post Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2018 11:27:33 +0200 Message-ID: References: <87in6ra84f.fsf@g1.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> <87muw3mpjk.fsf@netris.org> <87y3fnyouu.fsf@elephly.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003cdc3d056e463e07" Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:53388) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRwdO-0000kg-JJ for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 05:27:39 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRwdN-0000y3-Ag for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 05:27:38 -0400 In-Reply-To: <87y3fnyouu.fsf@elephly.net> List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+gcggd-guix-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" To: Ricardo Wurmus Cc: guix-devel --0000000000003cdc3d056e463e07 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2018-06-10 11:26 GMT+02:00 Ricardo Wurmus : > > Catonano, > > this language is not at all acceptable anywhere on Guix as you can see > by referencing the Code of Conduct. > > --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--- > Examples of unacceptable behavior by participants include: > > * The use of sexualized language or imagery and unwelcome sexual attentio= n > or > advances > * Trolling, insulting/derogatory comments, and personal or political > attacks > * Public or private harassment > * Publishing others=E2=80=99 private information, such as a physical or e= lectronic > address, without explicit permission > * Other conduct which could reasonably be considered inappropriate in a > professional setting > --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- > > It is one thing to call for a more welcoming community and quite another > to call people names and to assert that they act in bad faith as you > have been doing in the past days. Please stop right now. > > I encourage all to re-read the Code of Conduct. You can find it in the > Guix git repository or online here: > > http://git.savannah.nongnu.org/cgit/guix.git/plain/CODE-OF-CONDUCT > > -- > Ricardo > you chose to enfforce only some violations, not all of them I am not surpried at all --0000000000003cdc3d056e463e07 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

2018-06-10 11:26 GMT+02:00 Ricardo Wurmus <ricardo.wurmus@m= dc-berlin.de>:

Catonano,

this language is not at all acceptable anywhere on Guix as you can see
by referencing the Code of Conduct.

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--= -
Examples of unacceptable behavior by participants include:

* The use of sexualized language or imagery and unwelcome sexual attention = or
advances
* Trolling, insulting/derogatory comments, and personal or political attack= s
* Public or private harassment
* Publishing others=E2=80=99 private information, such as a physical or ele= ctronic
address, without explicit permission
* Other conduct which could reasonably be considered inappropriate in a
professional setting
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--= -

It is one thing to call for a more welcoming community and quite another to call people names and to assert that they act in bad faith as you
have been doing in the past days.=C2=A0 Please stop right now.

I encourage all to re-read the Code of Conduct.=C2=A0 You can find it in th= e
Guix git repository or online here:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 http://git.savannah.= nongnu.org/cgit/guix.git/plain/CODE-OF-CONDUCT

--
Ricardo

you chose to en= fforce only some violations, not all of them

I am not surpried at all

--0000000000003cdc3d056e463e07-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Ricardo Wurmus Subject: Re: my latest blog post Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2018 11:29:31 +0200 Message-ID: <87vaaryop0.fsf@elephly.net> References: <87in6ra84f.fsf@g1.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> <87muw3mpjk.fsf@netris.org> <20180610065555.dhqv5vzp6njsoziy@thebird.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:53664) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRwfb-0000yc-0o for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 05:29:55 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRwfY-0001li-TI for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 05:29:55 -0400 Received: from sender-of-o51.zoho.com ([135.84.80.216]:21126) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRwfY-0001lN-Lv for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 05:29:52 -0400 In-reply-to: List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+gcggd-guix-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" To: Catonano Cc: guix-devel , myglc2 Catonano writes: > They made a conduct report but nothing happened, eventually they had to > talk to Ludo directly >From the Code of Conduct: Instances of abusive, harassing, or otherwise unacceptable behavior may be reported by contacting the project team at guix-maintainers@gnu.org. All complaints will be reviewed and investigated and will result in a response that is deemed necessary and appropriate to the circumstances. Reports made to the maintainers (i.e. Ludovic and myself) are taken seriously. -- Ricardo From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Catonano Subject: Re: my latest blog post Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2018 11:30:38 +0200 Message-ID: References: <87in6ra84f.fsf@g1.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> <87muw3mpjk.fsf@netris.org> <20180610065555.dhqv5vzp6njsoziy@thebird.nl> <87vaaryop0.fsf@elephly.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000047f5f1056e4649c2" Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:53932) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRwgN-0001E7-68 for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 05:30:44 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRwgM-0002Gg-6y for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 05:30:43 -0400 In-Reply-To: <87vaaryop0.fsf@elephly.net> List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+gcggd-guix-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" To: Ricardo Wurmus Cc: guix-devel , myglc2 --00000000000047f5f1056e4649c2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" 2018-06-10 11:29 GMT+02:00 Ricardo Wurmus : > > Catonano writes: > > > They made a conduct report but nothing happened, eventually they had to > > talk to Ludo directly > > From the Code of Conduct: > > Instances of abusive, harassing, or otherwise unacceptable behavior > may be reported by contacting the project team at > guix-maintainers@gnu.org. All complaints will be reviewed and > investigated and will result in a response that is deemed necessary > and appropriate to the circumstances. > > Reports made to the maintainers (i.e. Ludovic and myself) are taken > seriously. > > -- > Ricardo > > I reported the assault David Pirotte made to me it was not taken seriously --00000000000047f5f1056e4649c2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

2018-06-10 11:29 GMT+02:00 Ricardo Wurmus <rekado@elephly.net>= :

Catonano <catonano@gmail.com&g= t; writes:

> They made a conduct report but nothing happened, eventually they had t= o
> talk to Ludo directly

From the Code of Conduct:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Instances of abusive, harassing, or otherwise unacceptable beh= avior
=C2=A0 =C2=A0may be reported by contacting the project team at
=C2=A0 =C2=A0guix-maintainers@g= nu.org. All complaints will be reviewed and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0investigated and will result in a response that is deemed nece= ssary
=C2=A0 =C2=A0and appropriate to the circumstances.

Reports made to the maintainers (i.e. Ludovic and myself) are taken
seriously.

--
Ricardo

I reported the = assault David Pirotte made to me

it= was not taken seriously

--00000000000047f5f1056e4649c2-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Ricardo Wurmus Subject: Re: my latest blog post Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2018 12:37:42 +0200 Message-ID: <87r2lfyljd.fsf@elephly.net> References: <87in6ra84f.fsf@g1.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> <87muw3mpjk.fsf@netris.org> <20180610065555.dhqv5vzp6njsoziy@thebird.nl> <87vaaryop0.fsf@elephly.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:34828) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRxjb-0003Xz-Dz for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 06:38:08 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRxjX-0001U1-Im for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 06:38:07 -0400 Received: from sender-of-o51.zoho.com ([135.84.80.216]:21087) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fRxjX-0001Tg-9s for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 06:38:03 -0400 In-reply-to: List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+gcggd-guix-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" To: Catonano Cc: guix-devel , myglc2 Catonano writes: > 2018-06-10 11:29 GMT+02:00 Ricardo Wurmus : > >> >> Catonano writes: >> >> > They made a conduct report but nothing happened, eventually they had to >> > talk to Ludo directly >> >> From the Code of Conduct: >> >> Instances of abusive, harassing, or otherwise unacceptable behavior >> may be reported by contacting the project team at >> guix-maintainers@gnu.org. All complaints will be reviewed and >> investigated and will result in a response that is deemed necessary >> and appropriate to the circumstances. >> >> Reports made to the maintainers (i.e. Ludovic and myself) are taken >> seriously. [=E2=80=A6] > > I reported the assault David Pirotte made to me > > it was not taken seriously For the record: 1. I am not a maintainer of Guile 2. Ludovic and I are co-maintainers of Guix 3. Reports of Guix Code of Conduct violations should be made to the Guix maintainers. 4. I have not received a report about David Pirotte from you. In fact, I have not received any report from you. -- Ricardo From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Mark H Weaver Subject: Re: my latest blog post Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2018 06:45:49 -0400 Message-ID: <87efheapia.fsf@netris.org> References: <87in6ra84f.fsf@g1.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> <87muw3mpjk.fsf@netris.org> <20180610065555.dhqv5vzp6njsoziy@thebird.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:35872) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from