From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: zimoun Subject: Re: Docker and singularity containers Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 13:09:33 +0100 Message-ID: References: <20180912151616.iwt3kqb77zd76wf6@thebird.nl> <878t4662lw.fsf@gnu.org> <87in3ak3w1.fsf@elephly.net> <20180912183059.oto5gi36boo62sx2@thebird.nl> <87bm92jutm.fsf@elephly.net> <20180913061036.y7xeizvazyhc5dsd@thebird.nl> <87a7olkgln.fsf@elephly.net> <87pntbrsig.fsf@elephly.net> <877efixyz3.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Return-path: Received: from eggsout.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:36346 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gg7Fm-00084l-Qt for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 06 Jan 2019 07:10:07 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gg7Fl-0003Em-NV for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 06 Jan 2019 07:10:06 -0500 In-Reply-To: <877efixyz3.fsf@gnu.org> List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+gcggd-guix-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" To: Mike Gerwitz Cc: guix-devel , =?UTF-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= Dear Mike, Thank you to raise this concern here. I was aware of this thread and I do not fully agree with the arguments. :-) I am doing 3 comments. First, from my point of view, we need to distinguish between the "puller" and the "pusher". And correct me if I am wrong, but one does not need an account to pull a Docker from DockerHub. Therefore, I do not see the issue from the puller side. Because if we apply the argument, do the GPL licensed softwares on GitHub respect the freedom of the user? The issue is about the "pusher" i.e. the GNU Guix project. And yes, the GNU Guix has to accept to run non-free softwares to be able to push on DockerHub. Is it acceptable? Hence, my second comment is about the _how_ to distribute. Currently, there is no free alternative to publish Docker image; even if docker provides a mechanism to pull from elsewhere than DockerHub. It is an issue about money and man power. It will be a pity to not spread enough free software political ideas because the movement lacks resources. And it is not about be hypocritical, I guess. If I may, I quote the paper from the Guix maintainers---correct me if I am wrong. https://arxiv.org/abs/1506.02822 last paragraph from section 5 << Proprietary software. GNU Guix does not provide proprietary software packages. Unfortunately, proprietary software is still relatively common in HPC, be it linear algebra libraries or GPU support. Yet, we see it as a strength more than a limitation. Often, these =E2=80=9Cblack boxes=E2=80=9D= inherently limit reproducibility=E2=80=94how is one going to reproduce a software environment without permission to run the software in the first place? What if the software depends on the ability to =E2=80=9Ccall home=E2=80=9D = to function at all? More importantly, we view reproducible software environments and reproducible science as a tool towards improved and shared knowledge; developers who deny the freedom to study and modify their code work against this goal. >>> Here, my personal opinion. Today, people think that the Science crisis about reproducibility will be tackled by Docker and containers. On one hand, I am here because I think it is wrong and it is not the path to go. On the other hand, I need to pragmatic: people in labs have built infrastructures using Docker or equivalent; they wont be convinced easily to switch and so I think I want to ease the switch in playing directly in their ground. Last, I do not understand how to apply the argument against pushing to DockerHub to the Windows port of Emacs. Somehow, GNU has to run non-free softwares to provide this port. At least to launch some tests. My personal opinion is that it is good. Because this spreads the message about freedom, this helps people to be aware of the movement, this should be a first step in liberating users. Thank you if you have comments and/or if you have arguments that explain me where it is wrong. All the best, simon