From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp1 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms11 with LMTPS id APOLK8A67l9SeQAA0tVLHw (envelope-from ) for ; Thu, 31 Dec 2020 20:55:28 +0000 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp1 with LMTPS id wN1OJ8A67l+HZAAAbx9fmQ (envelope-from ) for ; Thu, 31 Dec 2020 20:55:28 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 154F89402A5 for ; Thu, 31 Dec 2020 20:55:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([::1]:45212 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kv4yl-0003wN-1W for larch@yhetil.org; Thu, 31 Dec 2020 15:55:27 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:57156) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kv4yZ-0003ut-Gu for guix-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 31 Dec 2020 15:55:15 -0500 Received: from mail-vs1-xe2d.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2d]:44598) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kv4yX-00083T-Gq for guix-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 31 Dec 2020 15:55:15 -0500 Received: by mail-vs1-xe2d.google.com with SMTP id u7so10442256vsg.11 for ; Thu, 31 Dec 2020 12:55:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=0Vz+qNofY62iTdlTECpPAa3KdOOMfOLlgWydX9/RXKs=; b=TfssGg3RDhpMdiv7K++cUuCob7yXifjZg+ecIcOpxuqNohN0SqCpWbp2ySUJ4XMotH 4ETU/io/WqGcW5m/580QIgkbK2ceaQqAcnNrizQ6Cqi+FnUFL2SCR7YnuP2LILaoPaIo 9KNbtiM41WCLjCCb4Tb3TfJN7KGSV/qz8M0jK7LjGu06Wa2kCzoVVSTP91W5YJR0rUWW nY0dLJ50r3WX82Up48tbd4is0ldr4WUUopMJ1HWpscLHfOCKznodfy4TBNsshLooNPqV ZGoZogcgpNVw4oGraXAfUklkbUhonwo6zutMTl21fyu2i3g94p4OdRIvH2OKgmfvASNc xl9g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=0Vz+qNofY62iTdlTECpPAa3KdOOMfOLlgWydX9/RXKs=; b=U0eoJ3wOgHf1uiaTWqnVlI78L2Mw/m9FqAkj7U56pgU84uOynazhTiY8/gwjRb/9uG MIT/Gt7KP6rWBWhBBjLWBrRJsX9M00Y6hgyaylbi1lch7/hoY5vp5K2X9Mx9cS4Tv0T/ bIQik1qDzPJ8IJOLS0dS2X875iIo8vWdtUjv/04N7HVhEXQHTSjTSAl4HUKV4RaAi/0A rndy4vaqZmVyjKQ7qCctzNHZcHXZS9Xdg4+C6lQV4TtgVpdeTRpuNyson18c4nmTaIud MAJqetNUcLZvfBFV0XC6rxMXHVapOfKeojLYwc8+zfL7GdChwg5PBTb0GV3zUVHlBe7d KOBQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532QIkj2p1ma4wxYSs4jWPLQ1M4d7Ca7dy0OqeUk6hc25J9rInlD 1EYzphpaEYEmaTDWGND0UDYNDaBtu9Ycb9DiMZg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzXFSH16EfNoFdeJhzePFKwhnzlegJQSLXseeluQCFkzOejbFChlvGUU4spWKpAUUNqOQorqr19ccFie33OxxM= X-Received: by 2002:a67:1785:: with SMTP id 127mr36682277vsx.1.1609448112435; Thu, 31 Dec 2020 12:55:12 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <57cc687423ef554f64848a732b45bc94b539345d@hey.com> In-Reply-To: <57cc687423ef554f64848a732b45bc94b539345d@hey.com> From: Josh Marshall Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 15:55:01 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: How would packaging Steam-proton games be received? To: Ryan Prior Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000006bf2305b7c8d7c8" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2d; envelope-from=joshua.r.marshall.1991@gmail.com; helo=mail-vs1-xe2d.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -0.23 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail (headers rsa verify failed) header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=TfssGg3R; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=gmail.com (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 154F89402A5 X-Spam-Score: -0.23 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: BMHwqKffRrmm --00000000000006bf2305b7c8d7c8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" An expanded user-base brings with it an expanded developer-base. On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 3:50 PM Ryan Prior wrote: > I don't know in depth how Proton works internally, but I think it includes > non free DLLs, including DRM support, to improve compatibility with Windows > games. If my understanding is correct, shipping Proton and games that > depend on it as part of Guix would be a tacit endorsement of proprietary > software that exercises unjust control over users. The GNU project, as a > matter of policy, does not recommend non free software components, or free > components like DRM that are exclusively useful for restraining user > freedoms, so that may be a dead end. > > I like your energy in this thread though and agree that it would be great > if we could help gamers break out of the ugly Steam ecosystem. Itch is an > independent game distributor and they also publish all their client code as > free software: https://github.com/itchio > > Bringing Itch to Guix might be an interesting project, if we could find a > way to modify the client so that it does not recommend any games that are > not free software. There's a healthy and growing list of such games here: > https://itch.io/games/tag-open-source > > We might have to build our own game discovery portal to replace the > upstream itch.io storefront, but that would be a really nice thing to > have in general. > > Itch has its own tools for game developers to build their game and ship > updates to their users. For example, they designed their own protocol for > shipping new game builds using minimal resources: > https://github.com/itchio/wharf > > It would be beneficial if Guix could learn some of Itch's tricks, to > support fast moving projects that want to ship frequent updates to users. > --00000000000006bf2305b7c8d7c8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
An expanded user-base brings with it an expanded developer= -base.

On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 3:50 PM Ryan Prior <ryanprior@hey.com> wrote:
=20 =20 =20 =20 =20
I don't know in depth how Proton works internally, but I think i= t includes non free DLLs, including DRM support, to improve compatibility w= ith Windows games. If my understanding is correct, shipping Proton and game= s that depend on it as part of Guix would be a tacit endorsement of proprie= tary software that exercises unjust control over users. The GNU project, as= a matter of policy, does not recommend non free software components, or fr= ee components like DRM that are exclusively useful for restraining user fre= edoms, so that may be a dead end.

I like your energy in this thread = though and agree that it would be great if we could help gamers break out o= f the ugly Steam ecosystem. Itch is an independent game distributor and the= y also publish all their client code as free software: https://github.com/itchio

Br= inging Itch to Guix might be an interesting project, if we could find a way= to modify the client so that it does not recommend any games that are not = free software. There's a healthy and growing list of such games here: <= a href=3D"https://itch.io/games/tag-open-source" target=3D"_blank">https://= itch.io/games/tag-open-source

We might have to build our own gam= e discovery portal to replace the upstream itch.io storefront, but that would be a really nice thing = to have in general.

Itch has its own tools for game developers to bu= ild their game and ship updates to their users. For example, they designed = their own protocol for shipping new game builds using minimal resources: https://github.= com/itchio/wharf

It would be beneficial if Guix could learn some= of Itch's tricks, to support fast moving projects that want to ship fr= equent updates to users.
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