From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp11.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms9.migadu.com with LMTPS id 0GpnNfXth2QpEgEASxT56A (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2023 06:17:57 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp11.migadu.com with LMTPS id QEJINfXth2TjjgAA9RJhRA (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2023 06:17:57 +0200 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5FF333DF6D for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2023 06:17:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1q8kVs-000202-AX; Mon, 12 Jun 2023 12:35:28 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1q8kVi-0001zY-T8 for guix-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jun 2023 12:35:24 -0400 Received: from sail-ipv4.us-core.com ([208.82.101.137]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_CHACHA20_POLY1305:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1q8kVg-0007Ar-4g for guix-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jun 2023 12:35:18 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; s=2017; bh=osKske4Wt93LZYH dVmSQ5u8nf6e8BLOGfxA/8pTLbls=; h=cc:to:subject:date:from:in-reply-to: references; d=lease-up.com; b=Xzbpn8OnfirmpHvh93RfkoA3LBniZOvDjppjOYzY DbRb86PJRDEFjX3WApDNhT/FyUCrFsy1sHQ2AM4RCCRk1IV0bKcGPqpzZcWrHu5+DpPoWl +GU4guUcSjY1TUjLxPRFTdIAq3nOfpe4KpJk8ZDQEhRkDexEq1Zy7p0DonSVw= Received: by sail-ipv4.us-core.com (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id c0554bc3 (TLSv1.3:TLS_CHACHA20_POLY1305_SHA256:256:NO) for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2023 16:35:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-lj1-f177.google.com with SMTP id 38308e7fff4ca-2b1a86cdec6so53214681fa.3 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2023 09:35:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AC+VfDwzLMdY4tlJwSUAPJj4Rf09S7nWy4KDt3n0Br80b5LWdfWQ2WXs ZoiM7yUnFXCuv4y+dN6Z9ER5VfkdTATR8i4Rdng= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACHHUZ5/TLlC09Yxr6Zk8aV/+4NH1sh5FsZnblWR28XmvJLXuq2TLHbFYhGw1JhfUfXlaFIn/kwJ70qzBlMyw37e5oM= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9887:0:b0:2b1:b747:fad8 with SMTP id b7-20020a2e9887000000b002b1b747fad8mr2746505ljj.40.1686587706190; Mon, 12 Jun 2023 09:35:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87v8g5g2t1.fsf@ngraves.fr> <281e598a-993f-e3f9-682c-4e14ff7a8522@telenet.be> <87ttvd8ooc.fsf@gmail.com> <87y1kobtw3.fsf@wireframe> In-Reply-To: <87y1kobtw3.fsf@wireframe> Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2023 09:34:28 -0700 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: rust-build-system from antioxidant To: Vagrant Cascadian Cc: Maxim Cournoyer , Maxime Devos , Nicolas Graves , guix-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=208.82.101.137; envelope-from=felix.lechner@lease-up.com; helo=sail-ipv4.us-core.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-to: Felix Lechner From: Felix Lechner via "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1686629877; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=osKske4Wt93LZYHdVmSQ5u8nf6e8BLOGfxA/8pTLbls=; b=cbImWReBkSTjrVop2wZXeeE0/RXJ4C/tWCUG4xgRIH7zVvTrAWwPbVv3DzJiQRScyw+LqQ lZVS/8baVYLF7AjDAVqRo7aiCGQ90aSdx9H8QlmNWCt3LfF8LrrJBIlWdqEqA1E05SAUqZ +ge1LDALxMQ2G7c4C0q9qQ/4fwOHOXg+k28ukluwYqltvKQgbC5/eiBo0ctpXIOYqRwGF6 v8cmHBZcjjf9GFjFXCYKZI+bBnzHHti0+j9+m9z7MxzFPukjCB/DGMahCGKmJsPsJhGT/I d6QwVUo6r0IQQxOk/M8xB8U3RlIdxtiHTnnh7JIndwmyOKBLWx38mXLFFaiNCw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=lease-up.com header.s=2017 header.b=Xzbpn8On; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gnu.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1686629877; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=hBS7MlNGtOxWPkTArGnqntKyyErNr3WUavt82aYU2FckAJK/f2wUItTmbSFK56idikJNXI JMuKC5nO73LWjXlgI99KnhN28seUfHsVvc/h2/Q71THoT7E/2+M3PJq0tphjxyRKPtw0e+ BXWZ0jr0D3LttWiGY8oaP5F4SI0shOm4ctARDQFojR206H/n1Y2ATTCS7CmUjpBiAAK4q9 rdeIliwsZ9jHoOlt1/5bCniQosuwdEQGTxGxgwhWR6bs1F2XOw7YRdaUQu2lv7I6Wod89G cTSjCohSRNb+CeSyfU1rAEv6DmNavmKdotqmAL+Mq0xnb4KFsRxVa7/gB03OOA== X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -0.52 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=lease-up.com header.s=2017 header.b=Xzbpn8On; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gnu.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 5FF333DF6D X-Spam-Score: -0.52 X-TUID: 8uqQWmGeydCB Hi Vagrant, On Mon, Jun 12, 2023 at 8:09=E2=80=AFAM Vagrant Cascadian wrote: > > everything kind of has a social component! Thank you for pointing that out! Many technical discussions about project governance claim high moral ground but remain incomplete. Maxime possibly felt some righteous indignation because Maxim's well-intended reference to consensus does not actually apply in Guix that often. (I have to be careful to keep both your names in order.) It would be ignorant to claim that there are no power structures. Not all of them are official, but they are there. [1] Hierarchies are human, and they are not always bad. During the past year, I made some ambitious proposals that did not resonate with the general public or any of the folks in power. (I am a member of the general public.) Some committers told me privately that nothing big happens without the maintainer collective. Someone in the maintainer collective told me that nothing truly important (like legal stuff) happens without Ludo'. Of course, that expectation places an extraordinary burden on Ludo', who already works very hard. I don't think he (or maybe "they") even wants all that responsibility. Personally, I find Ludo' measured and generous. That being said, everyone makes mistakes. Sometimes, words are misunderstood. At other times, the merit of an argument is overlooked. Maybe that's what happened in the bug Maxime cited. Or maybe Maxime made a mistake with that narrow, unfavorable and critical assessment. Either way, it's important to have goodwill toward one another. I know a little bit about how large groups can work together. For the past nine years, I have been a minor city official in a bustling community of 230,000 immigrants=E2=80=94mostly from India and China, with 1= 58 languages spoken at home. The key is to keep solving the community's problems and also, to solve other people's problems in addition to my own. In Jewish mysticism, there is an old story about a giant vessel that once existed when the world was made. Unfortunately, it broke into a gazillion pieces, and we each ended up with a little shard. We spend the remainder of our lives looking for other pieces that fit. Let's be proud of our large and diverse community. Let's focus on the pieces that fit together. Thank you all for being here! Kind regards Felix [1] https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2022/gnu-guix-maintainer-rotation/