From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp10.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id 8DFkGjGZEmJmGAEAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 20:40:33 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp10.migadu.com with LMTPS id yAA9EzGZEmJpfwAAG6o9tA (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 20:40:33 +0100 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CA8912F2DC for ; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 20:40:32 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1]:41456 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nLs4N-0004QS-24 for larch@yhetil.org; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 14:40:31 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:58694) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nLs19-0002IN-BG for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 14:37:11 -0500 Received: from mail.arctype.co ([138.68.9.245]:55067) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nLs16-0007xj-Pk for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 14:37:11 -0500 Received: from authenticated-user (mail.arctype.co [138.68.9.245]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.arctype.co (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 38C1D13B1DF; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 19:36:34 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=arctype.co; s=mail; t=1645385795; bh=W4Ir5rxmR8rceSVhrq6y2bR0qVm1PhacIas90vjXo/w=; h=Date:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:To:From:From; b=oSDPTHA1ZGbUn2P7RbD9RPp4J/oEPREVZl8a38MHf3v1dBWBiph5z5iBRlRqQKQhM R1pTZkCIpH0vwTDyTz+Gg9l76DV3cAgn/jBrSM6kj87PXlPpXzUXChfFZZXYPYkO0U ZgBrMDV6hQr1WuN1mpsq0GuhBVc+l23a2oOEjmWyUVkBRU/Wd8N8sKtcCHJWZu86Sy e/z95y2WrjUFhLLlWx3io3N1tjqzN222VJUuPZu+9WXyIL0CHpSMXHcsGpJBE2TYQ4 CqwUvxeDQNEsJw2HfZQokYfwDROgsfamPChztZq36utDyEGLU8lA92b97fHdhB0rle h6ul/0O+z0M5A== Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2022 11:36:32 -0800 In-Reply-To: <2067ba1e606855eace261fd0b0ae9721b369bbd5.camel@telenet.be> References: <2067ba1e606855eace261fd0b0ae9721b369bbd5.camel@telenet.be> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----DRI27L7FVOFBWERLZK1VFINUEMX8LS" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Excessively energy-consuming software considered malware? To: guix-devel@gnu.org,Maxime Devos From: Ryan Sundberg Message-ID: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=138.68.9.245; envelope-from=ryan@arctype.co; helo=mail.arctype.co X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1645386032; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=VqaS3q06VMsUvkKx/yHjP+3J6A9PI0mMsOMnL1uhfBs=; b=RZB9J6RTQSFLZtXfQSLZxWcoObH0tytH/VcY+CCZ8eo1GOLz5+IYq3kff67dt1FpHIwkhf nAOKQ+WAZibcDDIHNfblRSK5aacVBgbVllMDJzk6KAbshb16He1kCRIJyU2MJqqq+5vu77 rrBPQu8A1kiilHyPeNoELujsDNxRwOoyXStSW0WQ8GTh+R3yycpnOXM6GfAgDCvPfXJGiN RqlYEHHYNSe7RMtZxPia5Q8vcKHbFoLut1bHYL2Hz9zCfBsQSJxEpUEKfwfSup1ulcec9A FkUZw6ClhQX+iF1IlKn/i4BhDjEL3/eo94aNDhq30y0yU8tU9oQezCIjxA5rcg== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1645386032; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=p8VmUPPdZKq1mJ2bpD0h1WoM1ycYAd8VPYd6ejesZW51yvM+KQm+jJsX6YO3TYI4mVEsMW ChLf5kcLvT2CclqWsvO0ajNAhAOU36hKr2Xu1jNGt7N7K6V27sOSFf5BR61XLb4CaHCgnJ Yoibofulb73w9XeLbLhg6ExB17saMHdY8zEJ0U3KdPRU4h8gx25LcI42hoA+i1y5m8Zqrq 40Zy4HFVBFzp+/6Qr6INlAAnUCjLndz6d99DIAh7dnEQj/eY/nbynyoP996fDbYI0PFp1o tm8VO9m4kFvE9VQMTtTy54OK3Bteq+z6DALWO8EHoINfhqdsdMmuJniT9dQ+kA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=arctype.co header.s=mail header.b=oSDPTHA1; dmarc=pass (policy=quarantine) header.from=arctype.co; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -0.73 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=arctype.co header.s=mail header.b=oSDPTHA1; dmarc=pass (policy=quarantine) header.from=arctype.co; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: CA8912F2DC X-Spam-Score: -0.73 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: GWW1th2uc6v8 ------DRI27L7FVOFBWERLZK1VFINUEMX8LS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'd prefer to steer clear of passing value judgments on individual packages= of free software as a policy=2E All of the tools we provide can be used fo= r good or evil=2E It is up to the user to bear responsibility for their own= actions with the software they choose to build=2E Sincerely, Ryan Sundberg -------- Original Message -------- From: Maxime Devos Sent: February 20, 2022 2:05:44 AM PST To: guix-devel@gnu=2Eorg Subject: Excessively energy-consuming software considered malware? [CC'ing some people in Guix I know to be interested in cryptocurrency] Hi, Guix packages some cryptocurrency(*) software (bitcoin, monero, some people have been working on packaging ethereum)=2E So far, it only appeared that clients are being packaged=2E More recently, a =E2=80=98miner=E2=80=99 for monero has been packaged (https://issues=2Eguix=2Egnu=2Eorg/54068)=2E At least for bitcoin, mining= is known to consume an absurd amount of energy (the footprint of a whole country, and 1 Bitcoin transaction is said to be equivalent to 735121 Visa transactions)[1]=2E Guix has a policy against including malware[citation needed 2], and furthering global warming[3] (and energy prices[4], if [3] is not bad enough for you) seems rather bad behaviour to me=2E Would these miners be considered malware in Guix? TBC I'm not making a case for rejecting all inefficient software, only software that is absurdly inefficient by design -- a, say, math library not using vectorised operations might be quite a bit less inefficient than a math library using vectorised operations, but that can be resolved with some programming work and it would seem to pale in contrast to the mining situation=2E Greetings, Maxime=2E (*) For this e-mail, I'm only considering cryptocurrencies based on some =E2=80=98mining=E2=80=99 system and assuming that monero and ethereum= have the same energy problems as Bitcoin, although possibly with a smaller constant factor=2E [1]: See, e=2Eg=2E, https://www=2Enytimesn7cgmftshazwhfgzm37qxb44r64ytbb2dj3x62d2lljsciiyd=2Eo= nion/2021/03/09/business/dealbook/bitcoin-climate-change=2Ehtml / https://www=2Enytimesn7cgmftshazwhfgzm37qxb44r64ytbb2dj3x62d2lljsciiyd=2Eo= nion/2021/03/09/business/dealbook/bitcoin-climate-change=2Ehtml [2]: zero hits when searching for "malware" in the manual! [3]: I'm sure you can find some sources about destabilising climate systems, species extinctions, fish getting third-degree burns, island nations gradually disappearing because of raising sea levels =2E=2E=2E [3]: I'm not sure actually that mining would be (partially) responsible for increasing energy prices but it seems plausible to me=2E ------DRI27L7FVOFBWERLZK1VFINUEMX8LS Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'd prefer to steer clear of passing value judgmen= ts on individual packages of free software as a policy=2E All of the tools = we provide can be used for good or evil=2E It is up to the user to bear res= ponsibility for their own actions with the software they choose to build=2E=

Sincerely,

Ryan Sundberg

From: Maxime Devos <maximedevos@telenet=2Ebe>
Sent: February 20, 2022 2:05:44 AM PST
To: guix-devel@gnu=2Eorg
Subject: Excessively energy-consuming software considered malware?<= br> 

[CC'ing some people in Guix I know to be interested =
in cryptocurrency]

Hi,

Guix packages some cryptocurrency(*) s=
oftware (bitcoin, monero, some
people have been working on packaging eth=
ereum)=2E  So far, it only
appeared that clients are being packaged=2E
More recently, a =E2=80=98miner=E2=80=99 for monero has been packaged=

(https://issues=
=2Eguix=2Egnu=2Eorg/54068)=2E  At least for bitcoin, mining is
known=
 to consume an absurd amount of energy (the footprint of a whole
country=
, and 1 Bitcoin transaction is said to be equivalent to 735121
Visa tran=
sactions)[1]=2E

Guix has a policy against including malware[citation=
 needed 2], and
furthering global warming[3] (and energy prices[4], if [=
3] is not bad
enough for you) seems rather bad behaviour to me=2E
Would these miners be considered malware in Guix?

TBC I'm not makin=
g a case for rejecting all inefficient software, only
software that is a=
bsurdly inefficient by design -- a, say, math library
not using vectoris=
ed operations might be quite a bit less inefficient
than a math library =
using vectorised operations, but that can be
resolved with some programm=
ing work and it would seem to pale in
contrast to the mining situation=
=2E

Greetings,
Maxime=2E

(*) For this e-mail, I'm only con=
sidering cryptocurrencies based on
some =E2=80=98mining=E2=80=99 system =
and assuming that monero and ethereum have the
same energy problems as B=
itcoin, although possibly with a smaller
constant factor=2E

[1]: =
See, e=2Eg=2E,
https://www=2Enytimesn7cgmftshazwhfgzm37qxb44r64ytbb2dj3x=
62d2lljsciiyd=2Eonion/2021/03/09/business/dealbook/bitcoin-climate-change=
=2Ehtml
/
https://www=2Enytimesn7cgmftshazwhfgzm37qxb44r64ytbb2dj=
3x62d2lljsciiyd=2Eonion/2021/03/09/business/dealbook/bitcoin-climate-change=
=2Ehtml

[2]: zero hits when searching for "malware" in the manua=
l!

[3]: I'm sure you can find some sources about destabilising clima=
te
systems, species extinctions, fish getting third-degree burns, island=

nations gradually disappearing because of raising sea levels =2E=2E=2E<=
br>
[3]: I'm not sure actually that mining would be (partially) responsi=
ble
for increasing energy prices but it seems plausible to me=2E

------DRI27L7FVOFBWERLZK1VFINUEMX8LS--