From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp12.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms9.migadu.com with LMTPS id oHcMCYdpDmQAhAAASxT56A (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2023 01:08:39 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp12.migadu.com with LMTPS id KEXuCIdpDmSQswAAauVa8A (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2023 01:08:39 +0100 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B817F3A122 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2023 01:08:38 +0100 (CET) Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=HxMnLjXT; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1678666118; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=UK0nqfj4mMRkg7+kZXj8leH7uUeK69+S0eB0Kggv55A=; b=u97N+dHxc4IfWYRYA87oiZ0gjcM4OJXWzaR24dbY9wnpEGPlAIk5PVFeQ+vqQfMfTLC7C3 OwzFS+vxckYQIJXVXCdwP6/6lALIKohYeJ/lyORbbx1ll+3yJP5+W0wo4VtWJ41a8so2L4 8glW2d7Y6MeqiWsm7wgHQknG5S0aub2Wf+bUqiDFYdBGJK2q6B1SqeuZ45z4Z5sphIDMfo Ng84zuL0cL4N25vl/LqDuuhcIUyMafIJCQzQHRAtHizMfLPfMlWxRIZRtHDzBb8Vz69SjM PGEv4xCcoa2uSzNW1FeUbpwDzmXvR6CXByTtw7ke8/dnTBcTKQgYgSuB41O6qA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=HxMnLjXT; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1678666118; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=KDfdzxoawMUHwZOWf0e0XkgotRRfeOb2/EEDTpW4JzZQz4HgMe/7aesn366TwBISqAt7FO XwInblOJO7wCAL+fyjXOefbpyv42OK7S58xhTh4qPyw7bqFQG/ac/300NnKqSxM1TXunR3 0XWSeBYs/M8zM5tOihmnlIS+pFailbOjfqczEIOavpRhddV1avmd4YBIKmpoCIo7eRN57N pf8aW9+Jbx5vYDEQDO7JXpNfeQ1a66qeqyY77I+My8X92uL2piYN+W7TVTx3RxWJwcpN5R LknymVTm5HqTuVEK0u0LOQSc8+LSR7DHK+3FnPgpsTru8FrERtLlaTJio10ybQ== Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pbVjc-0001BT-3R; Sun, 12 Mar 2023 20:08:16 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pbVja-00018z-5U for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 12 Mar 2023 20:08:14 -0400 Received: from mail-qt1-x832.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::832]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pbVjX-00075X-Tg; Sun, 12 Mar 2023 20:08:13 -0400 Received: by mail-qt1-x832.google.com with SMTP id r16so11613063qtx.9; Sun, 12 Mar 2023 17:08:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1678666088; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:user-agent:message-id :in-reply-to:date:references:subject:cc:to:from:from:to:cc:subject :date:message-id:reply-to; bh=UK0nqfj4mMRkg7+kZXj8leH7uUeK69+S0eB0Kggv55A=; b=HxMnLjXTzhEjgW5XASkNqvvcTugxNmBq9OiMIhTTNtNJBDXCEIUEHFFxAf9NJ9JfJt Q0H6WuyVbelyq2fFYlKS9LSY8yX7E2F2fRpAzG6uOEZex3u+BEI2JVxQ6VA7TfUNZBgj M6ePR1CbyeJ2TKY0tf9undCJapAJAHULoMvHrUKRd6mNlQjU08xck+baLHXAlB5i6YBW bhVJRZUVLNtNum2SkGj73XVWLmDIqqPEYbbJPNJWgUq+QFmtW9pHMK5RsZ3Z4Q5xlWbF lvg/Ttv9DQxhXkdPpTwQ5Asdc4SGXdDKY1AxUr8WegjjtTVSfMwznPEGzrXemk0cPdlV 7xIA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1678666088; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:user-agent:message-id :in-reply-to:date:references:subject:cc:to:from:x-gm-message-state :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=UK0nqfj4mMRkg7+kZXj8leH7uUeK69+S0eB0Kggv55A=; b=JX9+789IPZb14YftAbPrFrN099SD2WovWbi2QjHPAuaib5QcZdec92wuUwXboqzdHV /bnOkaVMDrHU+GL+FDPJPmEBGQE9nUGKFm0AxU0gPPR/CFGRTin8zYb+kLNaZRM4xq0l yvwdqaVkjLppuuiV+yJdsErGBVuDmQg3lhDkAGNvmhWPsIUZCIXp+YJiA2POFmqUM2Ol sZdf+cH22pO6rqdYkcpZtp8zO8BhB0OXDk6Bol8tAFEc6GmPklDejmdp088troQEhzgD XlwNdHg619NBylTlYz7nUtBPR1WJT4+5TUIwuNOCYf+LuhI5twC1mQuj1wSP1jSFkcnA hxGw== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKWhc62vJozrEs/M9aB+TY26VJJY+cLIKnMHGs8CfXjV2ZO5Bij9 zBF/2GNPBMe/cAWCfs5EIn/nnfQDHroJTf8B X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set8MEReBk3Wa38YAahApRFPDqemRd5bc8ZGVmtKZa8tp+Xz/aNbVEr36LSUamulnPUeFvhw+JA== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:7f4f:0:b0:3bd:16cf:2f17 with SMTP id g15-20020ac87f4f000000b003bd16cf2f17mr24684859qtk.53.1678666088550; Sun, 12 Mar 2023 17:08:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurd ([2607:fad8:4:3::1000]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m17-20020ae9e011000000b00738e8e81dc9sm4265520qkk.75.2023.03.12.17.08.06 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sun, 12 Mar 2023 17:08:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Maxim Cournoyer To: Andreas Enge Cc: Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s?= , Simon Tournier , =?utf-8?B?5a6L5paH5q2m?= , Christopher Baines , guix-devel@gnu.org, 61894@debbugs.gnu.org, guix-maintainers@gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#61894: [PATCH RFC] Team approval for patches References: <87y1o9mina.fsf_-_@envs.net> <861qm0da4y.fsf@gmail.com> <87sfegwh28.fsf@gmail.com> <878rg7uqb4.fsf@gmail.com> <86lek6ntpb.fsf@gmail.com> <874jqtte7c.fsf@gmail.com> <87bkl0frnk.fsf@gnu.org> <87356ar6p1.fsf@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2023 20:08:05 -0400 In-Reply-To: (Andreas Enge's message of "Sun, 12 Mar 2023 12:52:02 +0100") Message-ID: <87zg8ho6my.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::832; envelope-from=maxim.cournoyer@gmail.com; helo=mail-qt1-x832.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: X-Migadu-Queue-Id: B817F3A122 X-Spam-Score: -8.45 X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -8.45 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-TUID: ARLxwRtAKgGh Hi Andreas, Andreas Enge writes: > Hello, > > Am Sat, Mar 11, 2023 at 10:26:18PM -0500 schrieb Maxim Cournoyer: >> Ludovic Court=C3=A8s writes: >> > I hope the maintainer team can help make teams =E2=80=9Cmore functiona= l=E2=80=9D, >> > whatever that teams. It=E2=80=99s really what maintainership is about= in Guix; >> > it=E2=80=99s not about writing code. >> I'm happy to help with the effort, but I don't think it's particularly >> relevant to Guix co-maintainers more than anyone else interested in >> advancing/contributing to Guix, and I find it great that it's this way >> (not out of laziness, but because the talent pool of the whole Guix >> community is much larger that that of us 4 co-maintainers). Per what we >> co-maintainers signed up for in [1], the co-maintainers three primary >> duties are: > > but there is also > "Looking after people: making sure to promote people who are very involved > in leadership position; dubbing new committers, new maintainers, new > members of the spending committee. Supporting new initiatives. Generally > trying to make sure everyone=E2=80=99s happy. :-)" Yes, I've only quoted the core duties of the maintainers, because we struggle to do much of anything else; thankfully, many individuals in the our community mostly fill in the gaps (thanks!). I'm aware that ideally we would do more: if you are interested in giving a hand, let guix-maintainers know -- we're currently 4 and could do with a 5th person onboard to smooth out operations). > As for all "management positions" (even if we may not like the term here > as it often evokes a hierarchy; maybe "board members of a non-profit" > captures the idea better), I think the maintainers' role is more about > moderating ("animer" in French, which I think is more to the point), > keeping the overview, overseeing and facilitating initiatives, making sure > the project moves on, etc., than day to day work on details, or the three > technical points you mention (and which probably hardly ever require > action). Past maintainers will probably smile at the "hardly ever require actions" :-). But you are right, the occurrences of things like CoC complaints or other requests sent over email are not constant in time (but it doesn't mean they are easy or quick to resolve). That said, I agree with the general idea about maintainers having a role to play in smoothing out interactions (which I believe we are doing) and shepherding efforts toward a common goal (which I don't think we are doing much at all). > Maybe it would be time to move on to something like the Debian Social > Contract and concrete rules how membership, commit rights, maintainer > roles in the Guix project are bestowed and what is expected from > people fulfilling such roles. I'm not sure how something like the Debian Social Contract would help here, and I do not know that "membership" has a meaning in our community. As I mentioned before, I feel like our problems are mostly social rather than organizational (such as the question about how to motivate people to review more), so I'd rather focusing on that more than adding organizational layers. I'll now leave the discussion space to other participants, as I feel like I've already used too much of it :-). --=20 Thanks, Maxim