From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp0 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id 4DGnLTvRomCBVQEAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 17 May 2021 22:25:31 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp0 with LMTPS id iG1yKTvRomCtRAAA1q6Kng (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 17 May 2021 20:25:31 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 34BCC26898 for ; Mon, 17 May 2021 22:25:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:52078 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lijnu-00070S-Bj for larch@yhetil.org; Mon, 17 May 2021 16:25:30 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:40190) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lijnl-000702-Lf for guix-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 17 May 2021 16:25:21 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:33510) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lijnl-0000vn-E8; Mon, 17 May 2021 16:25:21 -0400 Received: from [2a01:e0a:1d:7270:af76:b9b:ca24:c465] (port=34558 helo=ribbon) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lijnk-0000ft-TP; Mon, 17 May 2021 16:25:21 -0400 From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= To: Brendan Tildesley Subject: Re: =?utf-8?Q?What=E2=80=99s?= next? References: <1367816066.282875.1621167873186@office.mailbox.org> X-URL: http://www.fdn.fr/~lcourtes/ X-Revolutionary-Date: 28 =?utf-8?Q?Flor=C3=A9al?= an 229 de la =?utf-8?Q?R?= =?utf-8?Q?=C3=A9volution?= X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x090B11993D9AEBB5 X-PGP-Key: http://www.fdn.fr/~lcourtes/ludovic.asc X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3CE4 6455 8A84 FDC6 9DB4 0CFB 090B 1199 3D9A EBB5 X-OS: x86_64-pc-linux-gnu Date: Mon, 17 May 2021 22:25:19 +0200 In-Reply-To: <1367816066.282875.1621167873186@office.mailbox.org> (Brendan Tildesley's message of "Sun, 16 May 2021 14:24:33 +0200 (CEST)") Message-ID: <87y2cdcdlc.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: "guix-devel@gnu.org" Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1621283131; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post; bh=pnjStaaBoajUuaEq6qsnyTpKCJvgZg/6JnojV1zmbGc=; b=oVx5gFz3UomHHs3ckb3e0kVJb1DkedERTpeUn3j3N9pwHATBRF8oipOKy1xgTpnKiVG6fg liZroN5HszmX4fvGmYylPCuTnTvTgpyYLtUPm6O6zdMiTdSBTmA4B4708eWu7390erk0fc Xn1/5g/xRW5xbx3W1hld3fitjxDWNdNKNPeKMy41BXBkyl0ycBADc47f2xQO8+hwNIl4Ig mg3xCbz8ixMVyZC+yhvWIBa5lZK6lpnM4VAU2IRr7McexpqgKZinoxOTbieshjIoyGzl55 +aVQmek9Gu03c+i7311jRTX+9RcofLUi+V/Mm1ICshoZMddts7jVGPimoVS0qA== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1621283131; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=A7dVWFDUegbksk3Bz2E4E2H9aFk4d9vNqAFSReCsWLCntWkIoZ/znii1m5CslMweRbeRNh E8zSjhZBxs+9ViU72hzn2cczZ9UInBXjqKpbkDfy/bVNP2bn1YhYUZeyTPj7p9g+G//IMg OINhrOecE6yM0Pc0WxYv17GuBRmBMhANAzWQRZ1O2zwuR06Lrm8x7AGGMjoOdvn3fZqwBy VcWh9d+4+RECN8mKaqyYa5sjw9KkUkfAMdcqewICvdgloFvq06acPFnYqn04lbN5a6XuUT YY30ud4C8qmdpIxHSUThWrwEwkTm3Xgzeq1FF73rgsBp1MAIWZfPYY/7K43yTw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gnu.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -1.94 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gnu.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 34BCC26898 X-Spam-Score: -1.94 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: 6AMqOVHIQr6v Hi Brendan, Brendan Tildesley skribis: > Since you asked I'll dump my nebulous wishes here. Sorry that I don't hav= e very > concrete suggestions and solutions, just things I think could be better. = I > should also state that 99% of my thoughts about Guix are through the filt= er of > "I want to build a Guix based desktop distribution that can be installed = on > library, school, and home computers and Just Work better than Microsoft W= indows" This is great. I agree that polishing what already exists should remain a major goal. > 1. Improve guix pull and updating reliability. > Updating guix for me is often like this: > $ guix pull > retrieving git objects.... > TLS error in stream blah blah blah > $ guix pull > retrieving git objects..34%......... *dies but doesn't return to the prom= pt* > ctrl-c I=E2=80=99ve literally never experienced this. Could you file a bug or two= to bug-guix@gnu.org, with at least the command and all the output? > $ guix pull > $ guix upgrade > $ sudo guix system reconfigure... > GUI desktop crashes back to TTY mysteriously. Likewise, please! > Often downloads to source tarballs will download at ~30KiB/s. maybe some > axel-like system where both upstream an mirror urls are used might be > good. Could you report as many details when that happens? > Also this may be wrong but from memory I think if the hash is wrong on > a source tarball, it will not bother trying to use the guix ci mirror > of it, only if it's 404. So people with --no-substitutes can get > completely stuck. True: . > 2. 'guix system reconfigure' without instantiating the new system until r= eboot. > I think the fact that reconfigure changes the whole system while its runn= ing is > a bit of a party trick, like pulling the table cloth out without any glas= ses > falling over. For a Desktop GNU/Linux it kinda just accidentally works m= uch of > the time. I've always thought I'd prefer the default to simply install th= e new > configuration in to GRUB and tell the user to reboot or add some flag like > --instatiate-now. I=E2=80=99m satisfied with the current default, but we could have an option= to delay activation until reboot. Likewise, please file as a =E2=80=9Cwishlis= t=E2=80=9D item to bug-guix@gnu.org. > 3. CLI consistency, e.g., > $ guix package =3D> nothing > $ guix system =3D> > guix system: missing command name > Try 'guix system --help' for more information. > > $ guix package --list-generations, but > $ guix system list-generations ???\ > > Also https://issues.guix.gnu.org/47618 All good points! > 4. Make guix simpler and more performant. > > Guix is complex. It has features that make it theoretically superior in m= any > ways, but in practice hasn't reached the reliability of simpler systems. = Every > aspect of Guix seems to take more time, cpu, ram, hd space than say pacma= n. > It's a bit beyond my skills to figure out how to actually improve these t= hings > though. > > $ guix system foobar > > takes 1.5-3.0 seconds on SSD, stats 2374 files, with 345 No such file or > directories in order to determine the command doesn't exist and do nothin= g. Agreed. There have been improvements over time, such as the ld.so cache in =E2=80=98core-updates=E2=80=99 (not merged yet), but there=E2=80=99s sti= ll a long way. It=E2=80=99s frustrating for all of us, but one way to help is by pinpointi= ng specific bottlenecks and gathering as much data as possible so we have a good starting point for optimization work. > A fast guix could have 'guix time-machine -- environment --ad-hoc emacs -- > emacs' run instantly after its been ran once, and some kind of 'guix run' > command could be added. Yeah. > 5. I think Guix should have some simple system to only update to the late= st > commit where behemoths like webkit/chromium already have substitutes avai= lable > and that should maybe be the default way to update. It's not a big deal i= f we > are making people build stuff that only takes 30 seconds and uses minimal > ram. Doesn't need to be perfect. Ricardo made some simple scripts that di= d stuff > like that in the past. Yes, this is being worked on (you may have seen =E2=80=98channel-with-substitutes-available=E2=80=99 in 1.3.0, which is a f= irst step in that direction.) Thanks for sharing! I guess my message here is that all these should be broken down into individual bug reports/wishes that can be more easily addressed. :-) Ludo=E2=80=99.