From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp11.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id iBVvJR6a0WFPDAAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 02 Jan 2022 13:27:10 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp11.migadu.com with LMTPS id 8IuiIh6a0WEu5wAA9RJhRA (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 02 Jan 2022 13:27:10 +0100 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4D6962FC44 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2022 13:27:10 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1]:58010 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n3zx7-0003h2-CS for larch@yhetil.org; Sun, 02 Jan 2022 07:27:09 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:49556) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n3zwE-0003dO-CB for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 02 Jan 2022 07:26:14 -0500 Received: from world.peace.net ([64.112.178.59]:56366) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n3zwC-0002Ah-2B for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 02 Jan 2022 07:26:14 -0500 Received: from mhw by world.peace.net with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1n3zvz-0000AY-UA; Sun, 02 Jan 2022 07:26:00 -0500 From: Mark H Weaver To: Liliana Marie Prikler , guix-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: On raw strings in commit field In-Reply-To: References: <6e451a878b749d4afb6eede9b476e5faabb0d609.camel@gmail.com> <87k0fm7v3k.fsf@netris.org> <871r1smdu6.fsf@netris.org> <87tuenky2x.fsf@netris.org> Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2022 07:25:13 -0500 Message-ID: <87v8z2b9yz.fsf@netris.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=64.112.178.59; envelope-from=mhw@netris.org; helo=world.peace.net X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (0.0 / 5.0 requ) SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1641126430; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post; bh=atIsNJWlyiBaCNz8V92S1b/9EmnNEAMhPMma6oDSORA=; b=YKpSlxHJa8IWch9EUFGKZB566Tk/OlRSJJ6jvjqBij49aUT5SkfK9A2zA8XkzXnqlKshZm K3/A/I1kI4jiwGk3DNmTzw2/wdAVKAMX0pSr/v3Mi0InYYcCBN8diOS1Nb7Q3Si75sDvdt 4qNeqa6ABt5hR0oY0h+oL4i/yPJFejOQNBdPC19waTTqx+i/Ji2Vp4UYDCifQI7879PI0J ZwLNwbEzMC1hCL7qTFW4OF18FMSkiBkUc+VZLcDhib56nvAHvpWdYm4e2br7TdgTSd9tvn m9S7Ai2glCYicGHzjer/MT+iljOIMjLS3Fq+yEEYTaVLWQbSWexUj2QdYXdKIw== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1641126430; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=hlHGRZPGQeCkNU1LVWwuQddvSI0vUPK1qYD38+4vxeBGkaQOrB9DzBJrVqfRYAMhi6nMTX n1ffz3MwqOLBWtrYeqUGd9PWuRB8P0DMsdHtv+ZziEZ/9cYLo8ZMEUoNO3But4nAki9U1k +klROZgHAx6mEN48xfCGS7s97C3KSJHrdxPCQhxIZeo8gZnScKg2x5oVDbmzeRkoddPie9 lzoyN2MsAYnpn7k7U/rcEZep4BnkFFv3AsV8bjHC0tUPkAKZxeF1wPJmy6pf1FqX7YIo2H 1tG6ZVYhKymYztpxyCnYZMLb7KUICQ8+qpnJm0NBMNguO0+sjQGTEUHixOhR3Q== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -3.08 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 4D6962FC44 X-Spam-Score: -3.08 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: ozgPjueVtHN/ Hi Liliana, Liliana Marie Prikler writes: > Am Samstag, dem 01.01.2022 um 15:19 -0500 schrieb Mark H Weaver: >> Hi Liliana, >>=20 >> Liliana Marie Prikler writes: >>=20 >> > Am Freitag, dem 31.12.2021 um 20:41 -0500 schrieb Mark H Weaver: >> > > I disagree with the last line above.=C2=A0 What makes you think that >> > > I'm presupposing that the tag does change? >> > >=20 >> > > There's a difference between "presupposing that the tag does >> > > change" and "not assuming that the tag will not change".=C2=A0 Do you >> > > see the difference? >> > I'm pretty sure =C2=ACassume(=C2=ACX) =3D assume(=C2=AC=C2=ACX) in thi= s concept. > To correct my own typo here, I meant context, not concept. > >> No, that's certainly false.=C2=A0 On the left-hand side of that equation >> there is an absence of any assumptions, and on the right-hand side >> there is the assumption that =C2=AC=C2=ACX is true. >>=20 >> Perhaps something is getting lost in translation between our >> languages. Repeating myself: our difficulties understanding each other on this point might be due a translation issue. Earlier, you wrote: > And here I disagree. This reasoning presupposes that we have to ensure > that the package still points to the same commit if the tag changes, > which itself presupposes that the tag does change. and I replied (quoted above) "I disagree with the last line above". However, I'll note that a single-word substitution would eliminate my objection. If you substitute "might change" or "could change" in place of "does change" in the text above above, then I would more-or-less agree with what you wrote. In English, the phrases "could change" and "might change" indicate a /possibility/ of change. In other words, they indicate an absence of knowledge about whether change will occur. On the other hand, "does change" suggests to my ears (as a native English speaker) that change is /known to occur/. In other words, if you say "X does change" and then X is observed to remain constant over some suitably long time interval, that would call into question the veracity of your words. To give an example from the Scheme programming language, if you showed me the following code template: (let ((LST '(1 2 3))) ) I would say "LST could change". I would *not* say "LST does change". With this in mind, here are your words again: > And here I disagree. This reasoning presupposes that we have to ensure > that the package still points to the same commit if the tag changes, > which itself presupposes that the tag does change. In the last line, you're telling me that my reasoning "presupposes that the tag does change", which to my ears suggests that you think I'm assuming that _every_ tag will be mutated sooner or later. If, instead, the last line above read: "which itself presupposes that the tag *could* change", that essentially means that I'm preparing for the /possibility/ of change, which is true. What do you think? Regards, Mark --=20 Disinformation flourishes because many people care deeply about injustice but very few check the facts. Ask me about .