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[66.158.151.174]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f27-20020a05620a15bb00b0075d405f4bdcsm1351190qkk.125.2023.06.12.06.05.18 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 12 Jun 2023 06:05:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Maxim Cournoyer To: Maxime Devos Cc: Nicolas Graves , guix-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: rust-build-system from antioxidant References: <87v8g5g2t1.fsf@ngraves.fr> <281e598a-993f-e3f9-682c-4e14ff7a8522@telenet.be> <87ttvd8ooc.fsf@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2023 09:05:17 -0400 In-Reply-To: (Maxime Devos's message of "Mon, 12 Jun 2023 12:10:58 +0200") Message-ID: <87v8fs7rw2.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::32c; envelope-from=maxim.cournoyer@gmail.com; helo=mail-ot1-x32c.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1686683660; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=YlFGZqDJ0x6r9jUo9iid1lXdHFPM9ruJclu4TbRp+cbC9h6w6Gdhke1MttIHnDaHNkCj2i sPn1Z7ogi4UaDLbykMYD6ROt+UpAlbzecUyBk2mcn9QzgmEN7FsruFNEPPaFlMtl8JTdKV x2v3Zd1aaxsqADvW+sRPkGMsoviPltPoBXuUHXpfH2IYf0rqa0isq3lJji7A7arqepux/G Kq3Kp1bzd9Wla0rqLIY6Eld+VogC/JT2kbZMzp0nuPHxaMzYWyBEVIZOUKuPysmf8twOYR 5H4aG4GoVDSW7btuFIZfV2FQYdKNh3Z3w4982s2Ai9nzYsOpJVXjGR10jOKVzA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20221208 header.b=RdDhBVfF; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1686683660; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=//Esi7qQlEdH1qapQp7/8xcBckp6FPIRHug2XHC05Mc=; b=H1C0V4mxkzr+o5v6td0OklrEogL4TRXuywgCsoPS4I3qQYHRxZv0TGUy6GaHpw3/IRC9fK HqFa8G7hocBr/Iy0uUSbeprq0kTx1GVX013qSacShljAPhwyWzSGkQfH9ZZ/mr8Ch2mj5u CXk0iZkGd6l1vevg0omStRvD2q5Pk3TV1KuFDs2TbEMYXaVo+XYvZqkMrACsqn4I1JIxuL D5ssWGw1T0s93nTx4rMOstQ7kzvobaQZaturO9B6es+U8ZhbVnZJ+1Rl7rDwFFryUpgiaY BhHf3wctUCcQToBNeCtQ9KJAXlImC+Y3V8V5BJt3A6pi5pcONhAGR+YVB+HLWQ== Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20221208 header.b=RdDhBVfF; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -7.17 X-Spam-Score: -7.17 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 7CB67FAD9 X-TUID: t+ewcfuzBZwq Hi Maxime, Maxime Devos writes: > Op 12-06-2023 om 03:17 schreef Maxim Cournoyer: >> Hi Maxime, >> Maxime Devos writes: >> >>> Op 02-06-2023 om 20:02 schreef Nicolas Graves: >>>> A few months ago, Maxime Devos worked on a new rust-build-system to >>>> handle a few issues we were experiencing with cargo (see discussions on >>>> antioxidant in guix-devel). >>>> A month ago, we discussed about the possibility of the integration >>>> in >>>> core guix, and the required steps. Maxime and I had a different >>>> approach. Maxime highlighted the possibility to make a smooth transition >>>> but once that would require many gradual changes and deprecation. My >>>> approach was that since we'll have to eventually migrate all packages to >>>> rust-build-system, and since we can freeze all former rust packages in >>>> an archive channel, I would be clearer to make the transition at once. >>>> [...] >>> >>> Actually, I started out with the non-gradual approach, but that was >>> overruled by Ludo', IIRC. >> Did you perhaps meant to say that it was disagreed with, or at worst >> "blocked by"? > > Yes. Overruling is a form of blocking, and blocking by authority > (whether de facto or de jure) is overruling. > >> There should not be a notion of 'overruling' in our >> contribution processes (unless the Guix co-maintainers have to step in >> as a last resort) if all participants strive to build consensus, as >> mentioned in info '(guix) Commit Access': >> It is expected from all contributors, and even more so from >> committers, >> to help build consensus and make decisions based on consensus. To learn >> what consensus decision making means and understand its finer details, >> you are encouraged to read >> . >> I thought I knew what consensus meant myself, but the above link >> helped >> me to re-frame a few things in a way that is more conducive to building >> consensus. > [...] > For example, the thread of the patch you sent at > is a good example of this, pretty > much everyone (except Ludo') agreed that the provided patch is good. Let's avoid directly criticising ourselves and try to discuss what I think has more value, which is coming to a better understanding of the situation and how the perceived deadlock could be undone. Consensus is not a majority vote; all parties have to walk the extra mile to reach a common ground. I think the object there was from a semantic point of view: we'd have a 'garbage collection' command (guix gc) which wouldn't collect any garbage! It's a valid objection, although its importance in the narrow use case presented was not agreed by all parties. A consensus-based outcome could be to add a new option to guix gc, e.g. '--invalidate', which would be documented as "invalidate (de-register from the Guix database) rather actually delete from the store". If that's still argued semantically unclear we could go with a dedicated 'guix invalidate', although that seems overkill to me. This is a bit more work than the 1 line change initially suggested, but I think we can agree that'd be a more general/better solution. Such is the trade-off of consensus-based decision making (requires more effort/slower moving but with a higher quality outcome). -- Thanks, Maxim