From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp12.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id 2MTYGxA+1WJtIQAAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2022 13:03:44 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp12.migadu.com with LMTPS id yKJvGxA+1WJmRgAAauVa8A (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2022 13:03:44 +0200 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 44304265E8 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2022 13:03:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:36396 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oDOXP-0006nk-3B for larch@yhetil.org; Mon, 18 Jul 2022 07:03:43 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:33020) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oDOX8-0006mj-Vq for guix-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 18 Jul 2022 07:03:27 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:33694) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oDOX8-0006GC-I3; Mon, 18 Jul 2022 07:03:26 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:Date:References:Subject:To: From; bh=A+oiwgsmQuuduF/XJ756nHC9beu+WZpAYG7fNhS1hOE=; b=oRQ1svwL3pupad01+0ce KEZ2xrw5/gqVWExf62IYYHw2p2HIW6nqIIUMil0Y8awCh7QY+uKbH8mWuptqDnkjDb212ZuDCOBFX ROUAPxhtTBD6JCDBc9B+ueeQ7PxR9bbXJ004XaJj3H1YRSIwohgsuxQaAFXr0hPto/pzRXCduhQBm ZIJtb5l1XmTmmXYgE+RFTlP27Lp9LmaWsanwWVcOaDMa5kp4mFTsGES2/4vz1g1FL+27myj5HMDD3 hxMZ2lxelDx1gwxHRR/XVloe3tzGlyQyYADQOgs85je+VaL6v6EjUcEIUpDxdCxfzVBuDaLUOJ9e9 QqvalkQykFPjPQ==; Received: from [2001:660:6102:320:e120:2c8f:8909:cdfe] (port=40328 helo=ribbon) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oDOX8-000327-3m; Mon, 18 Jul 2022 07:03:26 -0400 From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= To: Josselin Poiret Cc: guix-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: Building, packaging and updating Guix with confidence References: <87let6roxo.fsf@jpoiret.xyz> X-URL: http://www.fdn.fr/~lcourtes/ X-Revolutionary-Date: =?utf-8?Q?D=C3=A9cadi?= 30 Messidor an 230 de la =?utf-8?Q?R=C3=A9volution=2C?= jour de la =?utf-8?Q?Chal=C3=A9mie?= X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x090B11993D9AEBB5 X-PGP-Key: http://www.fdn.fr/~lcourtes/ludovic.asc X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3CE4 6455 8A84 FDC6 9DB4 0CFB 090B 1199 3D9A EBB5 X-OS: x86_64-pc-linux-gnu Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2022 13:03:22 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87let6roxo.fsf@jpoiret.xyz> (Josselin Poiret's message of "Wed, 06 Jul 2022 22:01:07 +0200") Message-ID: <87tu7e1y4l.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-To: larch@yhetil.org X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1658142224; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=A+oiwgsmQuuduF/XJ756nHC9beu+WZpAYG7fNhS1hOE=; b=mc/Uq8TrFOJVR90vJtNf6BREynWTHPTjat3MktqQ7rExUPdN05xRjcPkvWeWmqThLafhdV jgGdAZ4ZL2C1a2C9HjZfLkH9bh6xqRr0fTMGd+TX7oX+WnSaFDZuogmk5FW4PNf4jvJtAc /QfayEL3tbFDQfKwM6Xs/a/l9u2Ycf193glArxIwk6gX1JQORW05tERMMaEgelegTxhGha ijrTWCL8fENvu7bLb8zWEej/pE4D9HVqn3HEciJD+1NJ06U72cjxEmN9aCa7disDY1qsqe +0XOqAmV1YuVXFV6HIzewsfXm7viDJm3WICDgEqiTRI7DtGEVbI89jrA1iealA== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1658142224; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=jHwfwoJCu+Fob46/X63ARuDoCu9mKmahEm2e7thoaAqU6vVQYMNbG+Zggye4jM9I1RZ8qV cioELYotEo607CgGDQsgvJ64Ror/VGpdI8PtL4JoWOtkVaPfzDDXHnTcabPw+zMwrjyggq qNcnjv7QXb0Fespc3fmIhsUN7D1j/37xs9tRb4901mSYxVbEbYG3HLbgPvp76YJxbAsYj+ 6IWhK2vtPcXADX6SdatXuCelWCW2uKBJnCU81VLe1y/wUdmQyXAQuHI7Fof/CzMlFbIFlB c5XSu2HUAPQCY24cXCSK9Z13C+/8wXxHBoaz1e4rHcmh20qPMeHNHWAZB4/rxw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gnu.org header.s=fencepost-gnu-org header.b=oRQ1svwL; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gnu.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -6.93 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gnu.org header.s=fencepost-gnu-org header.b=oRQ1svwL; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gnu.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 44304265E8 X-Spam-Score: -6.93 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: mrP/vbaWhD/j Hi! I=E2=80=99m late to the party, but I like your thoughtful message. Josselin Poiret skribis: > What I personally think, is that we should rationalize the way we > interact with Guix source: a running Guix should always be able to hold > a reference to its source. The guix package or future equivalent > (ie. good for internal consumption) should always refer to that same > source, but that will also require factoring the daemon (and extensions) > out of the repository, so that the C code doesn't get compiled again on > every unrelated commit. Finally, and I think this is the most > challenging one, we should try to keep the differences between a) and c) > to the minimum, meaning that one way of building has to go. This is a > big change, conceptually and technically, and I understand that this > might be way more complicated that we'd like, but I think this needs to > be done at some point. I definitely agree. I=E2=80=99d summarize things a bit differently: 1. We have two build systems for the same software: the GNU build system and (guix self). 2. We have that crazy =E2=80=98guix=E2=80=99 package snapshot, which caus= es the problems you mentioned. Both contribute to a poor developer experience, but I believe they can be addressed separately. It=E2=80=99s not clear that #1 is much of a problem in practice. Someone w= ho contributes to Guix may have to touch gnu/local.mk, but that rarely goes beyond that. It=E2=80=99s annoying, but it=E2=80=99s not clear to me that = it=E2=80=99s a showstopper for newcomers. One thing that would be nice is getting rid of =E2=80=98guix-daemon=E2=80= =99 and replacing it with a pure Scheme/Guix way of building the C++ code that (guix self) would use. #2 is the main issue to me. There=E2=80=99s an open bug about it=C2=B9, wh= ich I=E2=80=99d like to address at least in the context of the installer. Thanks, Ludo=E2=80=99. =C2=B9 https://issues.guix.gnu.org/53210