From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp10.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id oCkFNq/DmGL2bgEAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Thu, 02 Jun 2022 16:05:36 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp10.migadu.com with LMTPS id 4OEwNa/DmGI0UAEAG6o9tA (envelope-from ) for ; Thu, 02 Jun 2022 16:05:35 +0200 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 746F837B9A for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2022 16:05:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:48280 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nwlSA-0003Gj-L9 for larch@yhetil.org; Thu, 02 Jun 2022 10:05:34 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:47938) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nwlRT-0003GT-L3 for guix-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 02 Jun 2022 10:04:51 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:58726) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nwlRT-0003sV-Bw; Thu, 02 Jun 2022 10:04:51 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:Date:References:Subject:To: From; bh=RcyQWBr23Z3Oswj+BgYPjOY3A4DOLWZpE80hOETD+Fk=; b=OGLQDHQyf2/Ug9TONlCg 6wKp0VRBiOnZ9afzRfbmejx71nSqICgPh3cEkLUq+di+iauwTHcIrk+90NjUPlKEHNwdtFmvdvF+w 6wNfhR/WX5ZF0MlnB8VS/nX8ctQ6xs+wrdRGzZcKpr/5rmoSxxQoNmJXEMRf3JB6TnV5femqxDJIZ +6h8uz8cRxClpIH2csZxyEIXekXtUsH68VLarQtAmuNBSxVm+OvpEeCimQPke+Luhfvb+5qaQOr/m v4SRn6O31zh1O3vDwE/4vpaEnyr02gtR4fz+wlUOayzGVYj1cIhDHPNGI8egia5pk7iUH4WvXys+C iJhMwk7st+rXlA==; Received: from 91-160-117-201.subs.proxad.net ([91.160.117.201]:50638 helo=ribbon) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nwlRS-00046M-Ul; Thu, 02 Jun 2022 10:04:51 -0400 From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= To: zimoun Cc: Maxim Cournoyer , guix-devel Subject: Re: Merging the purge-python2-packages branch References: <87mtezrw2v.fsf@gmail.com> <87tu97aw0s.fsf@gmail.com> <87ilpnrq7a.fsf@gmail.com> <87o7zfartq.fsf@gmail.com> <87mtexr060.fsf@gmail.com> <86k0a1judp.fsf@gmail.com> <87y1yguzfn.fsf@gnu.org> <86zgiwi2le.fsf@gmail.com> X-URL: http://www.fdn.fr/~lcourtes/ X-Revolutionary-Date: Quartidi 14 Prairial an 230 de la =?utf-8?Q?R=C3=A9v?= =?utf-8?Q?olution=2C?= jour de l'Acacia X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x090B11993D9AEBB5 X-PGP-Key: http://www.fdn.fr/~lcourtes/ludovic.asc X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3CE4 6455 8A84 FDC6 9DB4 0CFB 090B 1199 3D9A EBB5 X-OS: x86_64-pc-linux-gnu Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2022 16:04:48 +0200 In-Reply-To: <86zgiwi2le.fsf@gmail.com> (zimoun's message of "Wed, 01 Jun 2022 21:51:57 +0200") Message-ID: <87sfonnou7.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-To: larch@yhetil.org X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1654178735; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=RcyQWBr23Z3Oswj+BgYPjOY3A4DOLWZpE80hOETD+Fk=; b=QiWEpGjbVB1bitcQKBpsv5Pll+QlnW8HwFp/f7Oxrnvfr0j38pjtA9E/H3bpIxvBBsNofW OvWTKphOL3zk9mIIIsd7zqqFB+sQ3vsdw++HiUJhIEXy8X8nxXFgy5sP+y6BTzuJgfHnxn wu07NpSo3CE/kXnMMRVN6RuB8CrVvA0dvZDOdFOP65kQ7k1xCg0qXorxkCBPGy/YJ3mLT3 +MLgI1oy0FC+5Ub41yyoCe1lEgcglGqdPW4bphQj0midYL5RqbBMqjWdX1EpFFfRjzcHq1 o84T+eob0i8rqwTnrLtg4Vu5KtXia4u8O8W4aZ8YzcZD5RXivi9kFvdc78i2Lw== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1654178735; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=e0FePc7ydYWEO9VMTgRtt/LHG9KJGR8oT0b20M2vh/qnPXmfCmKBEADZbR9FV4ALsLoAYL 04FbJd5DoJXjz1DNPLB/kvitM/ROIHX4oHr2Za2VBnOlM1W0HdzeYsn+Q/0sbPgzE02kBN ZwxuhOX54F6Icmu+EajDes5oa3TWNwzqa+KoBUiPuv59tAtaytJsYbnNjSWkoh8/qwPfcV RpU5rE1rojfZ0NrqyiScq29sdPUaeWwHs625DlDRTyibadwM8uWrS3ScZif3wj+Jfj0TPs K8lPsiPA4TDQks1oMSOqUkMkkoK8SScQAZVcDBB4LOnaiqGyT6ffEWpP1IJtBA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gnu.org header.s=fencepost-gnu-org header.b=OGLQDHQy; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gnu.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -5.22 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gnu.org header.s=fencepost-gnu-org header.b=OGLQDHQy; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gnu.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 746F837B9A X-Spam-Score: -5.22 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: AGivnVNa9Vpv Hello! zimoun skribis: > Again, I agree with the purge, I disagree with the process. OK, understood. > Maybe my ideal world is wrong, but to me, the collective process would > have somehow been on Guix side: patches, branch and CI, announce on > guix-devel, announce on info-guix and publish a blog post (because the > script is unique, awesome and really worth), then done. In my ideal > world, we were at the announce on guix-devel step. Hence my surprise. Yeah. The patch series had been on issues.guix for two weeks, but that=E2=80=99s not enough for people to notice; I agree that an announcemen= t at least on guix-devel, followed by some time to adjust, would have allowed for a smoother transition. > It is really interesting: so much care about =E2=80=9Cguix environment=E2= =80=9D to avoid > any breakage of any workflow vs a massive purge without even an announce > on guix-devel: be aware, many Python 2 will be dropped on . =E2=80=98guix environment=E2=80=99 and Python 2 are two different beasts, b= ut you=E2=80=99re right that the difference in how we handled these two transitions is striking. > It is a bit more than pasting; whatever. :-) Heh, of course, and you=E2=80=99re right to a much larger extent than I tho= ught: Ricardo and I have been trying to rescue python2-{scipy,numpy} in Guix-Past and it=E2=80=99s much more difficult than I expected. >> In the end, it can have a good side effect: getting scientists aware of, >> and ideally involved in, the maintenance of their own infrastructure. >> Maybe you have an argument to recruit an new engineer on your team? :-) > > Too much optimism? :-) > > To be honest, I get two kind of feedback: > > 1. from scientists end-user, a) they do not have the packages they need > when these packages are easily available elsewhere, b) many tiny > annoyances which do not make daily usage smooth compared to others; > > 2. from =E2=80=9Csysadmin=E2=80=9D, Guix is not enough stable and not re= ady for production. > > Both are not technical but are most about perception. I will not drift > off topic. ;-) Yup, I hear that, and I agree that every such annoyance plays against the project (inaction would also play against it though, only in a more diffuse way.) > About =E2=80=9Cmy team=E2=80=9D, do you mean recruit myself? Even, I am = probably the > only potential recruit in my complete Institute. ;-) What I meant is that scientists cannot always be freeriders, to put it bluntly. If we=E2=80=99re providing valuable infrastructure to them, it ma= kes sense to invest in it=E2=80=94as opposed to identifying as =E2=80=9Cend use= rs=E2=80=9D. Thanks, Ludo=E2=80=99.