From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp1 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms11 with LMTPS id /W2LC0RT614+BQAA0tVLHw (envelope-from ) for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 11:43:00 +0000 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp1 with LMTPS id 8DOyBkRT615oWgAAbx9fmQ (envelope-from ) for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 11:43:00 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6884094030A for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 11:42:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([::1]:38766 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jlswb-00075a-Ct for larch@yhetil.org; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 07:42:57 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:35168) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jlsw0-0006fX-Ax for guix-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 07:42:20 -0400 Received: from mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr ([192.134.164.83]:29960) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jlsvy-0003km-4k; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 07:42:20 -0400 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.73,526,1583190000"; d="scan'208";a="455383221" Received: from 91-160-117-201.subs.proxad.net (HELO ribbon) ([91.160.117.201]) by mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 18 Jun 2020 13:42:14 +0200 From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= To: Konrad Hinsen Subject: Re: =?utf-8?Q?=E2=80=9CReproducible?= research articles, from source code to =?utf-8?Q?PDF=E2=80=9D?= References: <87d05ztcxj.fsf@inria.fr> <864kraxjau.fsf@gmail.com> <87k104omnv.fsf@inria.fr> X-URL: http://www.fdn.fr/~lcourtes/ X-Revolutionary-Date: 1 Messidor an 228 de la =?utf-8?Q?R=C3=A9volution?= X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x090B11993D9AEBB5 X-PGP-Key: http://www.fdn.fr/~lcourtes/ludovic.asc X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3CE4 6455 8A84 FDC6 9DB4 0CFB 090B 1199 3D9A EBB5 X-OS: x86_64-pc-linux-gnu Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 13:42:14 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Konrad Hinsen's message of "Thu, 18 Jun 2020 11:37:49 +0200") Message-ID: <87r1ucmwh5.fsf@inria.fr> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=192.134.164.83; envelope-from=ludovic.courtes@inria.fr; helo=mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/06/18 07:42:15 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = ??? X-Spam_score_int: -68 X-Spam_score: -6.9 X-Spam_bar: ------ X-Spam_report: (-6.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: guix-devel , guix-hpc@gnu.org Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" X-Scanner: scn0 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -1.01 X-TUID: rlxEk4T0jAN2 Hi, Konrad Hinsen skribis: >> I don=E2=80=99t like the phrase =E2=80=9Caverage scientist=E2=80=9D, and= we=E2=80=99re talking about >> people with a PhD who definitely know how to learn. > > I didn't take that phrase as a reference to ability, but to prior > knowledge. I am pretty sure that anyone who uses Python can also learn > to use Guile, but a computer scientist having experience with ten > languages will have less effort to do so than an archaeologist or a > wetlab biologist who has never used anything else but Python. Yes, I understand and agree with this assessment: making the tools usable without being an expert will be crucial. That said, these same people got used to Dockerfiles, CONDA, pip, Jupyter, CWL, Python, Bash, and whatnot. I think that stating that all this, taken together, has a =E2=80=9Csmooth learning curve=E2=80=9D, is ina= ccurate. >> Apart from that, I agree with the comments above: putting it in the >> hands of scientists will be the real challenge. I think providing >> modules and ready-to-use =E2=80=9Ctemplates=E2=80=9D for people who use = R+RMarkdown, or >> LaTeX, or Jupyter, etc. is a necessary step. > > I'd start somewhat differently: generate diverse use case examples. The > contributions to the ReScience reproducibility challenge could be a nice > starting point: go through them, one by one, and try to re-implement the > authors' various approaches with Guix. Then, in a second step, try to > identify additional tooling support in Guix that would make the recipes > simpler to implement. That might well lead to the development of ready > to use templates, but I prefer starting from a use case analysis to see > what is needed in real life. Yes, sounds like a good plan! > Another obstacle to adoption is the difficulty of deployment. Right now, > if I use Guix to make my work reproducible, I require my readers to > install Guix on their computers, which is a lot of work for Linux users > and a major headache for Windows/macOS users. We really need to reduce > that barrier to deployment. On Debian and derivatives, it should be possible to run =E2=80=9Capt-get in= stall guix=E2=80=9D soonish, which should help. For Windows and macOS, I don=E2=80=99t know (I=E2=80=99m personally less in= terested in that but I agree it would be useful to improve the situation there.) > Some ideas: Simple deployment of a VM running Guix System on a major > cloud provider would be nice to have. Or a service like mybinder.org, > but based on Guix rather than Docker. Or, for local execution, a Docker > image containing Guix plus some tooling to do the equivalent of "guix > time-machine =E2=80=93commit=3Dxxx =E2=80=93 build -f guix.scm" plus copy= ing the contents > of the generated package into the user's directory. Yes, we should discuss individual solutions along these lines. Thanks, Ludo=E2=80=99.