From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp12.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms9.migadu.com with LMTPS id cNZqK4nScGRyCQAASxT56A (envelope-from ) for ; Fri, 26 May 2023 17:38:49 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp12.migadu.com with LMTPS id 0DAGK4nScGQ2EwAAauVa8A (envelope-from ) for ; Fri, 26 May 2023 17:38:49 +0200 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 79D3F76A2 for ; Fri, 26 May 2023 17:38:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1q2ZVg-0007zC-7K; Fri, 26 May 2023 11:37:44 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1q2ZVd-0007xq-Io for guix-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 26 May 2023 11:37:41 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1q2ZVY-0004av-OM; Fri, 26 May 2023 11:37:36 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:Date:References:Subject:To: From; bh=2JZaHZyIPKSDtkNRnAE9dLGX0Fnj2LOKuWEqW/FMCA4=; b=XgXPWVOuEnHa097bG2+f eCOX9o1ZOrEOOBDVi36wZuonLDJiITCuPBoPiV+LqDfcU8mQyLfWHMOBzB6ExMLp1k8BAScjflu2q QcxCR6eQwR1DHOc8J3CW5Z700w8jtaqU63nRUditKutAX9uSw+/2g58kytIZa/9o2ERSuV1VQZYKR IyypyToaagAzwk1UYvwmWh6+qs36A/BzDAEXYb1LuvsmEdQsBaedG7Y3U4mh0cjCwiNDzRZc+MtJW NWG5ykNpywl5YfCUz+XsN2yBEbLDJIoukD2EmSEmB53xvzX+cuINbsoRAmZO1sbyZ/MKpVUcL87O6 +uZO32QPQvtJEw==; Received: from [2001:660:6102:320:e120:2c8f:8909:cdfe] (helo=ribbon) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1q2ZVY-0006Eb-Ak; Fri, 26 May 2023 11:37:36 -0400 From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= To: Simon Tournier Cc: =?utf-8?B?5a6L5paH5q2m?= , Ryan Prior , Nicolas Graves , guix-devel@gnu.org, zamfofex Subject: Re: Guidelines for pre-trained ML model weight binaries (Was re: Where should we put machine learning model parameters?) References: <868rf5e71j.fsf@gmail.com> <87ilcweumh.fsf@envs.net> <87v8gtzvu3.fsf@gmail.com> X-URL: http://www.fdn.fr/~lcourtes/ X-Revolutionary-Date: Septidi 7 Prairial an 231 de la =?utf-8?Q?R=C3=A9vol?= =?utf-8?Q?ution=2C?= jour du Fromental X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x090B11993D9AEBB5 X-PGP-Key: http://www.fdn.fr/~lcourtes/ludovic.asc X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3CE4 6455 8A84 FDC6 9DB4 0CFB 090B 1199 3D9A EBB5 X-OS: x86_64-pc-linux-gnu Date: Fri, 26 May 2023 17:37:33 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87v8gtzvu3.fsf@gmail.com> (Simon Tournier's message of "Mon, 15 May 2023 13:18:44 +0200") Message-ID: <87r0r3je82.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1685115529; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=X75PTxFAyyrDE/aaFkKLCCxlRsxTfqka02HSqWo6JA6yhDnW/r8lTc6nXbYD11kaDq0bB2 4WLODX8Jv+V5tiqZkrQIy+zc/qIbEvr2eucDcC9LA2YsRSyViu/UgLPBWpfdQPn6KfRd+M M4xonikrMbT0fPQ78fPq8BxuZapJ0/obZMw6hNNf/74XZnGN0p0BFvvPxDkaZ1g3W5yDZx 1cKWs0Ehjt5bQuChgEFFWZ9BWNknBHbZ96mCz2ivVFQeQUNioU22602Xq/D430ZCjn/sGA zNDkldevY0CmEfhv4IeB3HQKMumWfAXHw5T5wOPIf2y7i7k5oraouXNFCbpijQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gnu.org header.s=fencepost-gnu-org header.b=XgXPWVOu; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gnu.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1685115529; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=2JZaHZyIPKSDtkNRnAE9dLGX0Fnj2LOKuWEqW/FMCA4=; b=iV4L95QfjQaqJqp+aBC+LLjhNIh3g41ksDaTD+vANRB+u8hQYsAJZVFI3MlL90s70S+ie9 /9VuTKkXpc6XDz+ifKY2EMiTweWHq2peapD9q0zJbVkxYxeVAbKMB5BktIqyONIsS+iC4R cQjyrwkKVNDs+gX5ZQdMKi88GqBe8I+xeaQywrl42UIVZRI4/RiOYPsWdkDRjjipZjgI5d hi28V1PJDZWDM0cR7aEVbRIxIC5UkU0OZjrfups1qOoTZn5bhGRmzA2+6ZszBm9Cjignnm Ea3TLnqbb/iaAY2FUD87O7z5HVKrbCyFvEIbQH9qtHOrei7qS+Oeh+q5dEc/bw== X-Migadu-Spam-Score: 2.40 X-Spam-Score: 2.40 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 79D3F76A2 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gnu.org header.s=fencepost-gnu-org header.b=XgXPWVOu; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gnu.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-TUID: S9elNF7di3bY Hello, Simon Tournier skribis: > On sam., 13 mai 2023 at 12:13, =E5=AE=8B=E6=96=87=E6=AD=A6 wrote: > >> Hello, zamfofex submited a package 'lc0', Leela Chess Zero=E2=80=9D (a c= hess >> engine) with ML model, also it turn out that we already had 'stockfish' >> a similiar one with pre-trained model packaged. Does we reached a >> conclusion (so lc0 can also be accepted)? Or should we remove 'stockfis= h'? > > Well, I do not know if we have reached a conclusion. From my point of > view, both can be included *if* their licenses are compatible with Free > Software =E2=80=93 included the weights (pre-trained model) as licensed d= ata. We discussed it in 2019: https://issues.guix.gnu.org/36071 This LWN article on the debate that then took place in Debian is insightful: https://lwn.net/Articles/760142/ To me, there is no doubt that neural networks are a threat to user autonomy: hard to train by yourself without very expensive hardware, next to impossible without proprietary software, plus you need that huge amount of data available to begin with. As a project, we don=E2=80=99t have guidelines about this though. I don=E2= =80=99t know if we can come up with general guidelines or if we should, at least as a start, look at things on a case-by-case basis. Ludo=E2=80=99.