* Using 'λ'
@ 2018-10-13 8:51 Alex Vong
2018-10-13 11:55 ` Tobias Geerinckx-Rice
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Alex Vong @ 2018-10-13 8:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: guix-devel
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Hello guix,
Should we allow the use of 'λ' in guix? I think we have discussed it
before, but I forget why it was rejected. Running 'rgrep' on source
shows 7 uses of it. I think it is syntactically more pleasant and it
encourges the use of short functions (at least for me!).
Cheers,
Alex
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: Using 'λ'
2018-10-13 8:51 Using 'λ' Alex Vong
@ 2018-10-13 11:55 ` Tobias Geerinckx-Rice
2018-10-13 12:30 ` Alex Vong
2018-10-13 17:17 ` Leo Famulari
2018-10-14 7:04 ` Efraim Flashner
2 siblings, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: Tobias Geerinckx-Rice @ 2018-10-13 11:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Alex Vong; +Cc: guix-devel
Alex,
Alex Vong wrote:
> Hello guix,
>
> Should we allow the use of 'λ' in guix? I think we have
> discussed it
> before, but I forget why it was rejected. Running 'rgrep' on
> source
> shows 7 uses of it. I think it is syntactically more pleasant
> and it
> encourges the use of short functions (at least for me!).
One of those 'λ's is probably mine, but it is indeed
discouraged. I also forget why.
I now use global-prettify-symbols-mode to create my own reality.
Kind regards,
T G-R
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: Using 'λ'
2018-10-13 11:55 ` Tobias Geerinckx-Rice
@ 2018-10-13 12:30 ` Alex Vong
0 siblings, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Alex Vong @ 2018-10-13 12:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Tobias Geerinckx-Rice; +Cc: guix-devel
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Hi T G-R,
Tobias Geerinckx-Rice <me@tobias.gr> writes:
> Alex,
>
> Alex Vong wrote:
>> Hello guix,
>>
>> Should we allow the use of 'λ' in guix? I think we have discussed
>> it
>> before, but I forget why it was rejected. Running 'rgrep' on source
>> shows 7 uses of it. I think it is syntactically more pleasant and it
>> encourges the use of short functions (at least for me!).
>
> One of those 'λ's is probably mine, but it is indeed discouraged. I
> also forget why.
>
> I now use global-prettify-symbols-mode to create my own reality.
>
Thanks! I've tried it just now. It works except that the column number
is not right (it counts λ as 2 chars instead of 6 chars). Similar modes
such as glass-mode doesn't have this problem. Do you know of any way to
fix it?
> Kind regards,
>
> T G-R
Cheers,
Alex
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: Using 'λ'
2018-10-13 8:51 Using 'λ' Alex Vong
2018-10-13 11:55 ` Tobias Geerinckx-Rice
@ 2018-10-13 17:17 ` Leo Famulari
2018-10-14 7:04 ` Efraim Flashner
2 siblings, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Leo Famulari @ 2018-10-13 17:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Alex Vong; +Cc: guix-devel
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On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 04:51:48PM +0800, Alex Vong wrote:
> Hello guix,
>
> Should we allow the use of 'λ' in guix? I think we have discussed it
> before, but I forget why it was rejected. Running 'rgrep' on source
> shows 7 uses of it. I think it is syntactically more pleasant and it
> encourges the use of short functions (at least for me!).
I think it's a little too obscure for non-Schemers coming to Guix. The
Guix packaging EDSL is readable with basically no Scheme knowledge at
all. For that reason, I'd avoid λ in the packages, at least.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: Using 'λ'
2018-10-13 8:51 Using 'λ' Alex Vong
2018-10-13 11:55 ` Tobias Geerinckx-Rice
2018-10-13 17:17 ` Leo Famulari
@ 2018-10-14 7:04 ` Efraim Flashner
2018-10-14 8:01 ` Chris Marusich
2 siblings, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: Efraim Flashner @ 2018-10-14 7:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Alex Vong; +Cc: guix-devel
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On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 04:51:48PM +0800, Alex Vong wrote:
> Hello guix,
>
> Should we allow the use of 'λ' in guix? I think we have discussed it
> before, but I forget why it was rejected. Running 'rgrep' on source
> shows 7 uses of it. I think it is syntactically more pleasant and it
> encourges the use of short functions (at least for me!).
>
I know it's lambda, but to me it's like the ⓒ symbol. When I need to use
it I have to copy-paste it from somewhere else. I'm guessing as others
have mentioned, if you didn't recognize the Greek letter or come in
knowing some lisp then it's a wierd symbol that makes it harder to read
the source.
--
Efraim Flashner <efraim@flashner.co.il> אפרים פלשנר
GPG key = A28B F40C 3E55 1372 662D 14F7 41AA E7DC CA3D 8351
Confidentiality cannot be guaranteed on emails sent or received unencrypted
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: Using 'λ'
2018-10-14 7:04 ` Efraim Flashner
@ 2018-10-14 8:01 ` Chris Marusich
2018-10-14 19:10 ` Alex Vong
0 siblings, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: Chris Marusich @ 2018-10-14 8:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Efraim Flashner; +Cc: guix-devel
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Efraim Flashner <efraim@flashner.co.il> writes:
> On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 04:51:48PM +0800, Alex Vong wrote:
>> Hello guix,
>>
>> Should we allow the use of 'λ' in guix? I think we have discussed it
>> before, but I forget why it was rejected. Running 'rgrep' on source
>> shows 7 uses of it. I think it is syntactically more pleasant and it
>> encourges the use of short functions (at least for me!).
>>
>
> I know it's lambda, but to me it's like the ⓒ symbol. When I need to use
> it I have to copy-paste it from somewhere else. I'm guessing as others
> have mentioned, if you didn't recognize the Greek letter or come in
> knowing some lisp then it's a wierd symbol that makes it harder to read
> the source.
I agree; I think writing "lambda" is better than using the symbol. The
symbol is cute, but writing "lambda" is less surprising.
--
Chris
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: Using 'λ'
2018-10-14 8:01 ` Chris Marusich
@ 2018-10-14 19:10 ` Alex Vong
2018-10-14 19:29 ` Chris Marusich
0 siblings, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: Alex Vong @ 2018-10-14 19:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Chris Marusich; +Cc: guix-devel
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Chris Marusich <cmmarusich@gmail.com> writes:
> Efraim Flashner <efraim@flashner.co.il> writes:
>
>> On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 04:51:48PM +0800, Alex Vong wrote:
>>> Hello guix,
>>>
>>> Should we allow the use of 'λ' in guix? I think we have discussed it
>>> before, but I forget why it was rejected. Running 'rgrep' on source
>>> shows 7 uses of it. I think it is syntactically more pleasant and it
>>> encourges the use of short functions (at least for me!).
>>>
>>
>> I know it's lambda, but to me it's like the ⓒ symbol. When I need to use
>> it I have to copy-paste it from somewhere else. I'm guessing as others
>> have mentioned, if you didn't recognize the Greek letter or come in
>> knowing some lisp then it's a wierd symbol that makes it harder to read
>> the source.
>
> I agree; I think writing "lambda" is better than using the symbol. The
> symbol is cute, but writing "lambda" is less surprising.
OK. It seems many think λ is not newcomer-friendly, which is not what I
have thought about before. (Thanks for telling me!) I guess it's because
I have seen it in school physics before. But of course this is not a
compulsory subject, so it could be a wierd symbol for many.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: Using 'λ'
2018-10-14 19:10 ` Alex Vong
@ 2018-10-14 19:29 ` Chris Marusich
2018-10-15 9:45 ` Ludovic Courtès
0 siblings, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: Chris Marusich @ 2018-10-14 19:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Alex Vong; +Cc: guix-devel
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Alex Vong <alexvong1995@gmail.com> writes:
> [...] It seems many think λ is not newcomer-friendly [...].
I would go one step farther and argue that the name "lambda" itself is
not the best, regardless of whether it's written as "lambda" or "λ". I
agree with the authors of Structure and Interpretation of Computers when
they wrote ((sicp) 1.3.2):
"It would be clearer and less intimidating to people learning Lisp if a
name more obvious than ‘lambda’, such as ‘make-procedure’, were used.
But the convention is firmly entrenched."
But I digress. That ship has sailed, so the least we can do is to write
"lambda" instead of "λ" to keep Guix approachable/hackable for
newcomers. Every little bit counts.
--
Chris
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: Using 'λ'
2018-10-14 19:29 ` Chris Marusich
@ 2018-10-15 9:45 ` Ludovic Courtès
0 siblings, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Ludovic Courtès @ 2018-10-15 9:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Chris Marusich; +Cc: guix-devel
Hello!
Chris Marusich <cmmarusich@gmail.com> skribis:
> Alex Vong <alexvong1995@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> [...] It seems many think λ is not newcomer-friendly [...].
>
> I would go one step farther and argue that the name "lambda" itself is
> not the best, regardless of whether it's written as "lambda" or "λ". I
> agree with the authors of Structure and Interpretation of Computers when
> they wrote ((sicp) 1.3.2):
>
> "It would be clearer and less intimidating to people learning Lisp if a
> name more obvious than ‘lambda’, such as ‘make-procedure’, were used.
> But the convention is firmly entrenched."
I agree; “procedure” or even “function” would be much clearer…
> But I digress. That ship has sailed, so the least we can do is to write
> "lambda" instead of "λ" to keep Guix approachable/hackable for
> newcomers. Every little bit counts.
Agreed!
(And I’m saying this as the person who added λ to boot-9.scm. :-))
Ludo’.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2018-10-15 9:45 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 9+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
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2018-10-13 8:51 Using 'λ' Alex Vong
2018-10-13 11:55 ` Tobias Geerinckx-Rice
2018-10-13 12:30 ` Alex Vong
2018-10-13 17:17 ` Leo Famulari
2018-10-14 7:04 ` Efraim Flashner
2018-10-14 8:01 ` Chris Marusich
2018-10-14 19:10 ` Alex Vong
2018-10-14 19:29 ` Chris Marusich
2018-10-15 9:45 ` Ludovic Courtès
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