From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp11.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id KF6HFW8gs2K9FwAAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2022 16:00:15 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp11.migadu.com with LMTPS id oNmEFW8gs2Jn8wAA9RJhRA (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2022 16:00:15 +0200 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 029B0170A5 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2022 16:00:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:55134 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o40tx-0005bE-RZ for larch@yhetil.org; Wed, 22 Jun 2022 10:00:13 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:52132) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o40t8-0005Zc-TP for guix-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 22 Jun 2022 09:59:22 -0400 Received: from mail-qk1-x72b.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::72b]:37506) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o40t7-0000vl-3b for guix-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 22 Jun 2022 09:59:22 -0400 Received: by mail-qk1-x72b.google.com with SMTP id g15so12553576qke.4 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2022 06:59:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=JUr4W6KdR3evYlc4UmL+jh8T6UDQyE/U/3PsF5u+7W4=; b=FbXeuATOo0y6c0Jx1kOaw4GE2r62igr8KS4M6N0vsLXx1p0/1x9zoCJBKI0MjvrvLI hGNOyPbkx4X11Co9k1RaYYNCl0DCrClJP87CEBcC+nBJ4xM1saQSyys2kttz2AHxEb0U N9mJgn97AfdGB/uyYAL5kFBcQz5JdgXjvVhpn6ksEKhGASJPg19sELcaxmkpLGr47tnS 07SCN/b1JRk/YE5/wDd7nNnUWOFZSBiMFt4LabXaaoJ7j1V3MBbLBBEpWUOUkX7hT0Zh lSMWhggWK2eFCRgbpBYnMLLPBUa8vQtKst4VHo83n6sdKi9tGCdVJ66kEsdWoxy9VZVQ AFRw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=JUr4W6KdR3evYlc4UmL+jh8T6UDQyE/U/3PsF5u+7W4=; b=BOH9fgC5CijtdX1HET+Lj+HaIfa6XIcS7gyeF93nafiM77Nrvm/ytZ8B5WJQR+2wIU u0Wwg7qLcqcwowz1sNsP5Z7uo7VU2owfdWytnOynjD8KN18YKc2p66XBtyKl5m3BQJXJ FDBbvvYQpO7uhra7JKyR6rsYNUtGzmbY2DlnD6PlfN24DgTgMS49sHLeZqE84VzI5ie5 mfjVsyyqTI8M6JbhQyVt/6zKDazPvrqFBLxdgOAcRYrSQv6O8SdZcFCfcBJZcOv9agGQ 6Tz2WtmCFNnem1W8Xb2Ya1NmO8HgcLqz0lcg6uj3BauhJpQIeZk9mbAwFdBQBL4usK7/ cSbQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AJIora8zxbzI/HKqHyApA36EUU3X53+stV9qeTMU3WSdbMCsaEhpLn9q 2WVWy1do9SbR3Ow0CZIEtovPcfq5XVRfjA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGRyM1snjtR54dWfexgJQR383imNKglv5/zZz6XheaRZet96RYTFzcJBlIuu3ssx1iMuPP2T6s+GnA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:29ce:b0:6a7:1379:62d4 with SMTP id s14-20020a05620a29ce00b006a7137962d4mr2431672qkp.604.1655906359507; Wed, 22 Jun 2022 06:59:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurd (dsl-10-141-244.b2b2c.ca. [72.10.141.244]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u11-20020a05620a454b00b006a74da327fcsm17061916qkp.99.2022.06.22.06.59.18 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 22 Jun 2022 06:59:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Maxim Cournoyer To: Vagrant Cascadian Cc: Guix Devel Subject: Re: Set FORCE_SOURCE_DATE=1 by default References: <87bkv0f52g.fsf@contorta> <87tu8d5ozo.fsf@gmail.com> <87v8stnsca.fsf@contorta> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2022 09:59:18 -0400 In-Reply-To: <87v8stnsca.fsf@contorta> (Vagrant Cascadian's message of "Tue, 21 Jun 2022 23:08:05 -0700") Message-ID: <87pmj06bpl.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::72b; envelope-from=maxim.cournoyer@gmail.com; helo=mail-qk1-x72b.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-To: larch@yhetil.org X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1655906415; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=JUr4W6KdR3evYlc4UmL+jh8T6UDQyE/U/3PsF5u+7W4=; b=JPBr1FRQpZEKvRNcSjJ3O8xQMLg/uc+tO7S3MXkng+7PjI//bbv1560ljh79+4k3oEBDlA PcujTh/4P7Xi3X9W2xqzPPIU0rjJwkzfzJK59/FSZNz6GnyAZyZcFdmLpV6lxABkaQAf/A TOIeq8aa/0IVlf9tj1JgwTE7aIXP/oI/PS2SBUdUudPNfrNTURJ/hbAA/2xxZVjXNt2vLr 5sGNoBE9CHig7ZB2xC9VWn5GigWiQbH7Ek+AvTBuqxXfwWzWHTzJaGtCbhkF3cXn9xNd9/ l5PrLSIyTcI4OvA3T72W2s/OgR35kAYcQB35PMs76zc+y3Knu2JVELl9KaneDg== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1655906415; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=OiI6Cz9SmGAa0JjG3MFJ9SWUyT52T2fu0Ok2hC5sc86PzeQmMm6maIohiHAwVjmhgzyYFD zdAaRwswWJpZZxc6XDizXeBZsWNuwO++DrMNnIsWaHxnKeEm9E1FEcp35es3MxK3LECly4 6xQt+aSHQ9Q0Jx/UiPD+d+N3UdDhW+JV/N9AA9H2ZsK1CKdXbarMJEfohsJ0WBv8goHskY okeM/HxalwQGVz69y8/riRclfgBRuBZsW3tkb7chSUSMJQrmeiqeqF403gxQK+nZkJABqZ +CTFRfOykG1eru+WJ8B06NYCSylUWOjKIqWp6dofJQzJBsJozqlATnR0xObzMQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=FbXeuATO; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -5.46 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=FbXeuATO; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 029B0170A5 X-Spam-Score: -5.46 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: G7glonK4ks2k Hi, Vagrant Cascadian writes: > On 2022-06-21, Maxim Cournoyer wrote: >> Vagrant Cascadian writes: >>> So, guix sets SOURCE_DATE_EPOCH=3D1 by default in >>> guix/build/gnu-build-system.scm, which is great! >>> >>> This allows guix packages in many cases to build packages reproducibly, >>> with a curious side-effect that takes us all back to the early 70s in >>> some corner-cases (or even late 60s, dependent on timezone). >>> >>> That said, some projects (such as texlive) might be worried about >>> messing with time too much (I get it, lots of cautionary sci-fi >>> stories!), and so you *also* need FORCE_SOURCE_DATE=3D1 to be set in or= der >>> to respect SOURCE_DATE_EPOCH. >> >> That seems ridiculous. Has anyone tried getting in touch with them to >> get their arguments about why inventing another variable that means the >> same thing was necessary? > > Yes, there were some fairly long threads about it and I have little hope > that revisiting it would change much; it was originally implemented as a > texlive specific variable, which was changed to the FORCE_SOURCE_DATE > variable to at least avoid the danger of every project inventing their > own name-brand variables... > > >> I'd much prefer challenging that stance than "endorsing" it in Guix :-). >> I think it'd be OK to reluctantly add it in as a stop-gap fix in Guix, >> but *only* after opening an issue to discuss it upstream and linking to >> that issue in Guix. > > I get it. I really do. It kind of grates at me every time I think about > this. > > I know it really is not great and seems quite suboptimal to me, but I > don't personally think rehashing the arguments will be a productive use > of time for anyone... > > I think the pragmatism of making more packages reproducible by conceding > to set FORCE_SOURCE_DATE is the appropriate way forward; I agree it > feels silly or even maybe would go so far as to say a bit "wrong". Perhaps to show our stand here we could patch our copy of pdftex with 's/FORCE_SOURCE_DATE/SOURCE_DATE_EPOCH/', lest we end up with a grocery list of *SOURCE_DATE* variable variants. Even reproducible-builds.org discourage its use (directed at upstream rather than downstream, but still) [0]: If for some reason you=E2=80=99re still conflicted on suddenly changing= the meaning of your =E2=80=9Cnow()=E2=80=9D function and desire another swi= tch other than SOURCE_DATE_EPOCH being set or not, the texlive project came up with the variable FORCE_SOURCE_DATE; when that environment variable is set to 1 cases that wouldn=E2=80=99t normally obey SOURCE_DATE_EPOCH will do. We= strongly discourage the usage of such variable; SOURCE_DATE_EPOCH is meant to be already a flag forcing a particular timestamp to be used. It'd still be nice to have the link to the upstream discussion that led using a FORCE_SOURCE_DATE variable mentioned in a comment above where we'd do this trivial substitution; do you have a link to it? I couldn't find it. Thanks, Maxim [0] https://reproducible-builds.org/docs/source-date-epoch/