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Sun, 15 Dec 2024 04:46:47 -0500 Received: from confino.investici.org ([93.190.126.19]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tMlD2-00046g-Dy for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Dec 2024 04:46:47 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=subvertising.org; s=stigmate; t=1734256001; bh=Bl+kC7NI4qRyQCApzbos9QnPSh4ZZmpcwRWlAITNCjk=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From; b=IXdeoA3UQHsNQjimvDxDWgTrInxJV9z7SIrSW6jxtODNXgwrPf5yTohVI8Ib3XIUQ t4zFi70HqC/45SXmHAVM2XAP4PmU5Sv3yct9YHVRRB5zc3Up5olkY2RPH4sOxteBhS 6k783zmV1dsuQ+yejbgLNY4BSJjFqh0jd37CQ1J8= Received: from mx1.investici.org (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by confino.investici.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Y9yrx6l4Tz11fk; Sun, 15 Dec 2024 09:46:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [93.190.126.19] (mx1.investici.org [93.190.126.19]) (Authenticated sender: divya@subvertising.org) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Y9yrw30wpz11fY; Sun, 15 Dec 2024 09:46:40 +0000 (UTC) From: Divya Ranjan To: Maxim Cournoyer Cc: "Thompson, David" , Ekaitz Zarraga , paul , guix-devel Subject: Re: Guix (and Guile's) promise, and how to (hopefully) get there In-Reply-To: <87bjxdxtwd.fsf@gmail.com> (Maxim Cournoyer's message of "Sun, 15 Dec 2024 16:55:14 +0900") References: <02559f63-35e6-4159-9d4c-e1d423aad3be@elenq.tech> <8b58064321ae06543061ffaa843e4267@libre.brussels> <5e7b06af-96f4-4264-a67f-7b8914b3eab1@elenq.tech> <4379269f-7c17-43be-836c-babf883fd2bf@autistici.org> <206e6eb0-7bc2-4b5b-bf1d-3e016926633a@elenq.tech> <87bjxdxtwd.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2024 09:46:38 +0000 Message-ID: <87plltp9c1.fsf@subvertising.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 3B86D7C215 X-Migadu-Scanner: mx13.migadu.com X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -5.22 X-Spam-Score: -5.22 X-TUID: WGGreFMyHzvj Maxim Cournoyer writes: > Hey, > > "Thompson, David" writes: > >> On Sun, Oct 27, 2024 at 3:13=E2=80=AFPM Ekaitz Zarraga wrote: >>> >>> Many people on this project have tried to change GNU from the inside and >>> are very critical with the FSF (see the https://gnu.tools/). I think >>> that's also a good way to do things, changing them from the inside. >>> Fixing them for all our friends. Honestly, the argument of getting >>> distance with GNU and the FSF is too simplistic to be taken seriously. >> >> Changing GNU/FSF from the inside has been a losing strategy for at >> least a decade, as a conservative estimate. Nothing has meaningfully >> changed for the better and the situation continues to deteriorate both >> socially and infrastructurally. Many have tried to reform GNU, all >> have failed. Some burn out and never return. Those that remain choose >> to inhabit the fringes; projects that are historically GNU but in >> practice are no longer concerned with the project as a whole (Guile >> and Guix, for example.) We unsubscribe from gnu-prog-discuss and move >> on. Thinking that GNU can be changed at this point is what is truly >> too simplistic to be taken seriously. The GNU brand is and has been a >> net negative for Guix. Juli did a great job describing why in an >> earlier message. Every conversation about Guix I stumble upon online >> inevitably derails into a negative discussion about GNU and it's hard >> to break through the noise to explain that Guix is really cool, >> actually. It's not priority #1, but we gotta eschew GNU. > > I'm late to the party but I thought I'd voice my feeling as I read this, > catching up slack on the ML. I find the assertions, or more > specifically, the level of assertiveness, that GNU is or has been a net > negative for GNU a pretty simplified world view, at least from my > perspective. > > I believe GNU's largest contribution is to provide a philosophical > foundation, e.g. articulating the software freedoms. They've also > proven dedicated in upholding the same goals they've set forth from the > beginning; that's not something many organizations can be entrusted > with. > > I know that some contributors (you can count myself as one), got > interested in Guix *thanks* to its association with GNU. That you > assert so confidently that it's been a 'net negative' for the project > almost feels insulting. > > I also do not happen to share your experience with people looking up to > GNU or the FSF in a bad eye, but I don't take part in hip > Mozilla/Microsoft/trendy-tech-of-the-moment sponsored events, so who > knows. Hello Maxim and others, I had been mostly observing the opinions shared on this thread, and as some= one who=E2=80=99s begun to contribute to Guix in small steps over the last = month, I would like to share my perspective on this. I totally agree with Maxim on the fact that to paint GNU as a =E2=80=9Cnet = negative=E2=80=9D for Guix, is something that harms the community and not c= onstructive. I myself started using Guix _because_ it was explicitly part o= f the GNU project, and one of the very few GNU/Linux distributions that aim= ed to be completely free/libre. Without Guix, someone who wishes to operate= a completely free operating system has to rely on alternatives such a Tris= quel and Parabola, and in my opinion Guix surpasses them in several ways. This liberation is a crucial part of any GNU software, and as such it has r= eal impact on people, me and others do testify to this. I had been advised = to instead go for NixOS but why would I choose a non-GNU software that does= n=E2=80=99t prioritize user freedom over one that explicitly does so? The t= echnical differences are there, and even in those I believe Guix because of= Guile is superior, but beyond that, _philosophically_--as Maxim reminded u= s of the foundation that GNU/FSF built--it impacts differently. This is what made me choose GNU Guix and it is one of the primary reasons I= overcame obstacles in real-life and other technical challenges to start co= ntributing to the project, I know my contribution remains minimal until now= , but I can promise that if Guix continues to walk along the path of GNU, m= y contributions would only multiply with time. The overall contribution of GNU/FSF is a separate discussion, I don=E2=80= =99t know how people ignore what GNU Emacs has continued to do for over 40 = years, or the licenses that literally paved the way for giving a legal foun= dation to fight proprietary software. This discussion would not only be len= gthy, but probably intense and could only marginally touch Guix. The real question to ask is: does, the foundation and the community, intend= to prioritize the values of free/libre software as they work on building i= t? How much do we value this, is it higher, lower or equal to the technical= aspects of Guix? In my opinion, currently we prioritize it highly or equally, and I think we= _should_ continue with that. If the community and the foundation choses to= change this to a lower priority, losing the spirit of free/libre software,= then it makes sense to leave GNU. I have used GNU/Linux distributions over the last 5 years, I spent 4 of the= m exclusively on Arch Linux. My primary machine used to be a 16 year old i3= 1st generation, and Guix ran on it as smoothly as any distribution would. = I never faced issues with firmware due to linux-libre kernel. This month wh= en I switched to a newer machine, I realized that it=E2=80=99ll be unusable= on linux-libre, and I was forced (with much regret) to rely on linux with = firmware blobs. Other than this, I have faced no major issues from Guix its= elf, had I used linux-libre in Arch, I would=E2=80=99ve had the same issue.= Thus, I think we might be focusing on the wrong things when we analyze lac= unae of Guix. Just like Emacs has ELPA and MELPA, we also have nongnu alternatives for th= ose who are forced to rely on it, and that might be improved, but why consi= der that GNU is holding Guix back? I doubt anyone would say GNU has held Em= acs back, it hasn=E2=80=99t. If at all, Emacs (despite the recent drama and= others in past) has grown to remain one of the best editors with modern fe= atures (TreeSitter, multiple LSP clients, etc.) Similarly, I would suggest the thoughts on improving Guix/Guile to look at = aspects of the project where we might not be doing the best job, or if we c= an take different steps in terms of reachout. But as an user and contributo= r, please don=E2=80=99t take steps to separate Guix from GNU. It=E2=80=99ll= be a considerable loss too both the projects. Regards, --=20 Divya Ranjan, Philosophy, Mathematics, Libre Software.