From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp10.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id eNiuFMWB02N0eQEAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 08:48:21 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp10.migadu.com with LMTPS id UFrYE8WB02PXQAAAG6o9tA (envelope-from ) for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 08:48:21 +0100 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BA9002A4FD for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 08:48:20 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pLJSW-0006Ac-Hs; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 02:47:44 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pLJSK-00067V-1s for guix-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 02:47:35 -0500 Received: from ns13.heimat.it ([46.4.214.66]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pLJSI-0008IZ-EH for guix-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 02:47:27 -0500 Received: from localhost (ip6-localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ns13.heimat.it (Postfix) with ESMTP id E367D30022E; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 07:47:22 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at ns13.heimat.it Received: from ns13.heimat.it ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ns13.heimat.it [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QU--3DxqVlrM; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 07:47:21 +0000 (UTC) Received: from bourrache.mug.xelera.it (unknown [93.56.161.9]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by ns13.heimat.it (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7CA3730022D; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 07:47:21 +0000 (UTC) Received: from roquette.mug.biscuolo.net (roquette [10.38.2.14]) by bourrache.mug.xelera.it (Postfix) with SMTP id F2DBB22BB5F0; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 08:47:20 +0100 (CET) Received: (nullmailer pid 5117 invoked by uid 1000); Fri, 27 Jan 2023 07:47:20 -0000 From: Giovanni Biscuolo To: zimoun , jgart , guix-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: Stratification of GNU Guix into Independent Channels In-Reply-To: <86zgaz7nq6.fsf@gmail.com> Organization: Xelera.eu References: <84400bcea3eee39dc15d82812a8006bb@dismail.de> <86zgaz7nq6.fsf@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 08:47:19 +0100 Message-ID: <87o7qkfmgo.fsf@xelera.eu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=46.4.214.66; envelope-from=g@xelera.eu; helo=ns13.heimat.it X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1674805701; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post; bh=YrUisjECo4YzlFMVqjuRhg4ThyDqPlURlwmVePXBWzA=; b=fo9IgErztGgMPM/dX/QtJd1C8r2gyfFZ8E94jYcyz9WXCTxWtZG7SuFGfVpOiWsDztRzBT kBo5EWW3epSaJyD71D/v5M0jLx3Jwqhd9MNNCQjxd9a6U41b2XlRccgG9EAHrsRFj+nDYp 14/vE6q3b0XdYW9wxZD2kPtgNjx/23eZzA+WdMb/Chc5aGzTgW6+jovGilz3fhax0VvdDA gKM4axFkwTfRX7d1yI18QfENx2xDAdMg781gxkZFXxqfOO5JHwyezufmzus2qtyUJ4Tcad 6JYYac0+vol9xC3RluK1LBjbBcTAyYXm9Kk0eazlzLUiwnQkDrUMxXS1HNxEtg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1674805701; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=d7cka1NAZg6NhwlPJjahqGYy9M77/pJV8f3ce5R2FvZ+D6sPSFaj07PhFte24SZYxNkOFt /YRK9aGw/eLH/n19W+l10HYz0CgxAeAHw2VUlCaqnhbWwcNbY5w8Uym+Yd+SpeQuBEI2cx ip6qn6kOjRvlOnS70YMHDSevVb1E4Pgi/CJWVj3Mpr6zHnB68ZeYRegGaWSWscxSjlnL3B R0vPMMYKyrXbRbWIuWJGMN00HwFsJqIBA/GmK+LH+2HSwZaiuV151VAWhN3txyDQONYzO5 AfM8IwXYifjOJDBBwOvJ9dd9XErMYWEgwLxVZjj4LGAz+aX8a6phnywqsz9yAw== X-Spam-Score: -3.47 X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -3.47 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: BA9002A4FD X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: +H2CX0IqFO+M --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, just a quick comment zimoun writes: [...] > Moreover, many channels would be dependant from one to the other. and this would be **a nightmare** to maintain (as already clearly stated by others much more competent than me in Guix-things) to recap: all PROS that you jgart mentioned in his original message does not apply (or are "reversed" to CONS) and users would not benefit of this kind of modularity in terms of speed (likely speed would be much worse with more than 4 channels to pull in, and 4 channels would be too few for a complete system) as far as I can understand from my journey in Guix, it has the **great** advantage to /expose/ the weaknesses of some (some?) upstream packages not so... diligent with dependency hygiene, leading to the **big** problem of dependency hell or dependency confusion, that sooner or later /someone/ (distro mainatienrs often) have to solve *before* including that package in the distribution (unlike what is happening with PyPI, npm and alike: good luck users!) as Liliana said: =2D-8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--- What does work is convincing upstreams to pull in less dependencies and drop the outdated ones, because that makes it so that eventually Guix has to ship less packages. =2D-8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- Unfortunately I have the impression that not so many upstream developers are really aware of the problem and when they are they think it's a problem of someone else, not their. Minimalism at (Guix) System level, one package at a time. Happy hacking! Gio' [...] P.S.: the elevator pitch of all this thread could be: =C2=AByes, software systems are way too /complicated/... but please don't blame Guix for it (instead "git blame" and bless it!)=C2=BB :-D =2D-=20 Giovanni Biscuolo Xelera IT Infrastructures --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQJABAEBCgAqFiEERcxjuFJYydVfNLI5030Op87MORIFAmPTgYcMHGdAeGVsZXJh LmV1AAoJENN9DqfOzDkSK5sQANDfmgI04QlyYT8I8bBXvut1vvIkqyK0rVZKYfwB 3nap3fQbBPlj7zjmaNibkbzIaAROmr4S8nzTbjACK6wTqoCesV8RfW3J1bzs96HU dRs9/ab1ISvfr1Ap+hxunNZqjRZod+KqGhi+kkz0LeDuVxuiY0YcH88/ed7afFtQ r6M4saikVII2Wx+IMRZLzRbOW9g76tYDKjwHK9+Lb+ZJD34PkKslvWclhdxIc/mZ 4kwcMJLplYczia9XfCf3xRNelqV4SVpu6ypA9fDR/T7u895ZQA8vdcK2IxWdkjM8 TH1rffjfwcON3QH4QKdbUBqt8DYWmmDn8PA0Tgf8AJeO5QOk141pfpH5S9XHHsrg PbOGPUVsKchAA+8clpnGJtHZSTvjbXJzcQfeBk6Flcq98A7ZYjhAXPRyPy+IaxQp s7urcub1sYGKByzLMvWiiPDU3FlFSExY+/VMM8IaynywLoLVvvDunOORUl/qNAHk XawJyRoon7Ff2D2l8o7W9Lzyfr13fWBbsEfET77KBEvSdGKWDERwxlmvztOY89Dq f23vDQ5DfvmNIAbULOT+/wDR1HqgCEhabNDKy0yKi6KWQMFnOVXBXQz6QT4gq4RQ DwvVcW+IbXCrFz6RIfXsyeYOTk7NAISEx3fWYzqKJBcJgrblX6T2so5B42yGf9Vc I4oq =RSle -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--