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[172.221.246.205]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l18sm1346919ilj.12.2021.10.14.07.54.23 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 14 Oct 2021 07:54:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Katherine Cox-Buday To: Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s?= Subject: Opining on "modern" development practices (was Re: Merging the =?utf-8?B?4oCcYmluYXJ54oCd?= NPM importer?) References: <87mto8zpll.fsf@airmail.cc> <87zgs3829p.fsf@gnu.org> <87fsttuys3.fsf@dustycloud.org> <877deo473m.fsf@gmail.com> <87a6jeayuf.fsf@ngyro.com> <871r4opfbf.fsf@gmail.com> <87mtnbpv1z.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 09:54:23 -0500 In-Reply-To: <87mtnbpv1z.fsf@gnu.org> ("Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s=22'?= =?utf-8?Q?s?= message of "Thu, 14 Oct 2021 15:58:32 +0200") Message-ID: <87mtnbfyhs.fsf_-_@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::d29; envelope-from=cox.katherine.e@gmail.com; helo=mail-io1-xd29.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: guix-devel@gnu.org Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1634223294; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=qDDiZKIE+4Pw9iHmPTrb4EhloI//DDcc/eTzi7fAEUY=; b=UMza9L8rG5yO/SNY1XNfnNijRbDyDvjc6+Azhvs5fFdm6Jybe/TI0y+QOfLZw78RU7Nc3K J5OcyCD3QvNnouIlIe0FeiFNDOU8Pq/l/VlRkfGk78Z9JMlwBBqO9HKvn/xY3hS0T/SLdO YjPH7EmZGmK1cdpNibYxh5HAFlmxmR7qjhzdWcbWC0TF5K9z+FStV0Ey5lQd1ffHAfuUMw emRcKsF8T6NNwXrAU9tjpjiaQ2oFNCrrlxPypxV01L8Q+2oP7+nCDV0ETvKfJ7A2fsbLX0 Ri5Qix2wp/T/lsuYCw6/+LT+nNVTQ8fNJ5J1JZUCneJAdjTmqit+KlDTMYAqDw== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1634223294; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=O7A80ywQwEFzS80Wpf/Day1wvEHkk5BiLSgbIp3WvAaqSxRAWcsk8ttCoRarDMbhSg0BYG 79vDnGxBi+ffWDHx7dxdszYG5xBiOXP5RQvIPx+Pf3NcOMAmHWJuCEDTy2gbHj6uGGFFNN v3wAa893dUraHYWD7O1cVXkY0mwWit55nUcbVzur6wjiKWj/gobLI3oFze8mR9NVUnAYja WHn4D4TkzR6iPQittDmDJRwcx2TZxBxzTHCKzlp1f5ehpfKJTq7+YXNsagY3L2CHbZrtxJ Uie4xg/uSvzV/f9tgEJdKBMBk+047ImlMgljddKg1mo/ki/xv5BkjxVg0agzpw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=kT67UE6n; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -3.11 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=kT67UE6n; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: F2D7420A3B X-Spam-Score: -3.11 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: TM5OXgW/Be4/ Ludovic Court=C3=A8s writes: > It=E2=80=99s an unusual situation, but it seems that =E2=80=9Cmodern=E2= =80=9D development > practices make it hard or impossible to meet our standards in the first > place; yet, we=E2=80=99re missing out on a whole range of free software p= ackages > by not doing anything. Offering the tool while not compromising on our > standards seems like a reasonable middle ground. I think this is yet another example of the "worse is better"[1] debate, see= mingly still ongoing in the world, thirty years later. I don't have much practical to say on the subject, but a few things have of= ten occurred to me which someone may find useful or interesting to ruminate= on: 1. The premise of the "worse is better" philosophy seems to me to have been proven true. Development tools and environments which are easier to get, start using, and distribute, proliferate. And these communities produce = the most software. As you pointed out, some of the software itself is free a= nd useful. 2. Sometimes these ecosystems (e.g. Javascript) are so volatile, bad things= fall out. It is difficult to stay abreast of changes, there are security issu= es (e.g. tainting a very common dependency, bootstrapping issues, etc), maintenance issues, and lots of wasted effort rewriting things. Still, a large percentage of developers' time and energy goes into that ecosystem because of point one, and they create useful things. 3. Sometimes these ecosystems are so volatile, good things fall out. Throug= h the lens of experience, solutions and tools are created which address the ha= rd won lessons. 4. This seems to be how nature and evolution work. Me? I like well-ordered things that have been thoughtfully produced. But I = think about number four a lot. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worse_is_better --=20 Katherine