From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Giovanni Biscuolo Subject: Re: Promoting the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines? Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 13:48:24 +0100 Message-ID: <87lg6g536v.fsf@roquette.mug.biscuolo.net> References: <11169507.O9o76ZdvQC@aleksandar-ixtreme-m5740> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:45062) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gH6yI-0000KN-QQ for guix-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 29 Oct 2018 08:48:44 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gH6yD-0007hW-T1 for guix-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 29 Oct 2018 08:48:42 -0400 Received: from ns13.heimat.it ([46.4.214.66]:44368) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gH6yC-0007ZZ-VI for guix-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 29 Oct 2018 08:48:37 -0400 In-Reply-To: <11169507.O9o76ZdvQC@aleksandar-ixtreme-m5740> List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+gcggd-guix-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" To: HiPhish , guix-devel@gnu.org --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable the *political* position from a *potential* future contributor about Contributor Covenant executive summary: CoCs should never be substitutes for laws, maintainers should never be substitutes for judges. There is no need to scare (potential) contributors stating their political positions could be judged unacceptable behaviour based on a vague statement. There is no need to assign maintainers the burden of pursuing social justice in the context of an (*informal*) software community. by informal I mean: contributors are not employed by a body nor signs a contract to be part of the community, except possible copyright assignment (or did I miss something)? HiPhish writes: > I have had two packages merged, which I guess that makes me technically a > contributor, so here is my takes on the issue. I'm just a sysadmin planning convert all my infrastructure - present and future - to GuixSD... and I hope I could contribute back **Q1** (first question): have the maintainers of Guix or GuixSD ever faced a situation that needed not even an enforcement but just a (private or public) discussion about an unaccepteble behaviour? *obviously* the decision about what kind of code of conduct to adopt is up to maintainers and if they decided they can afford to apply and enforce https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix.git/tree/CODE-OF-CONDUCT they have all the rights to do so if I was to choose a code of conduct for a project of mine I'd _never ever_ choose "Contributor Covenant" since it's so vague that - in good faith - I could never accept to commit to enforce it please consider CC does _not_ define: 1. the standards of acceptable behavior: it's up to the maintainers to clarify [1]=20 2. specific enforcement policies [2]: if needed (are the default ones sufficiently defined? IMHO not) maintainers should define enforcement policies so it would be mine (as maintainer) responsibility to address this two issues: no thanks, I do not want to "reinvent the weel" of "constitutions"=20 if I was to choose a code of conduct I'd rather choose GNU Kind Communication Guidelines since it "Please"s contributors and does not force maintainers to commit to hard to maintain promises, keeping the obvious rights associated with project maintainance [3] (IMHO non need to state the obvious), including contributors banning as an extreem consequence ...leaving all the civil and criminal investigations to a judge, if really needed [...] > The accused is not even > allowed to know what the accusation is about (confidentiality clause), https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix.git/tree/CODE-OF-CONDUCT#n68 does not say so, confidentiality is about the reporter, not the accusation claims (even if knowing the accusation could easily lead to the accuser, if the accusation is about one single unacceptable behaviour) [...] > There is no clause that allows the accused to defend their position this should be part of a per-project enforcement policy, defined by maintainers (point 2 above) [...] >> * Trolling, insulting/derogatory comments, and personal or political >> attacks the "political attacks" part it's what really scares me: I'd like not to be judged - as project contributor or even maintainer - based on my politically *uncorrect* positions [...] > If I wanted I could consider it the former and pull the trigger > metaphorically. I am asking because this is not a hypothetical question,= =20 > people have been loosing their jobs over these issues for real. plz do you have any link to the relevant news, I mean of people being fired for CC enforcement? It would be very useful for my research any civilized country should have a legislation to address workers being fired based on their political views (this is discrimination) [...] > On the other hand, I have seen enough examples of existing long-time > contributors being expelled from projects and being harassed, especially = by > proponents of the CC. plz do you have more examples of contributors being expelled? I need it for my research purposes I just know the story on Elia Schito from Opal project [4] back in June 2015 (Elia was _not_ removed prom project) about his tweets about transgenders [5] I absolutely do not agree with Elia's political ideas about transgenders, but propose to define his statements as "unacceptable behaviour" due to CC it's like denying freedom of speech in the project community (Opal in this specific case) ...and it's **not** with the Contributor Covenant or other similar _software_ project policies that we will contribute to solve social discrimination in our *social community* > The CC's own author is one of the worst offenders of the > CC's own terms, going after people's private social media accounts and > quote-mining them to demand their expulsion or even extort money. this is a bold accusation, made in pubblic too: plz can you give us the relevant news on this so you can justify this claim? [...] > You have people in this very thread who are afraid of contributing **Q2**: given there are at least more than 3 people afraid of facing possible consequences to **their possibility to contribute** due to a perceived uncertainty of the project code of conduct, don't you feel the need to specifically address this in https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/contribute/ at least saying "do not be afraid to contribute"? :-) ...or do you think all this arguments are just FUD? I'll accept if you just say: yours are just FUD :-D > and even I was considering leaving my packages just sitting on my local h= ard > drive rather than submitting them upstream, another possibility should be (even personal) forking with no commitment to become an active contributor... but it would be an uneffective workflow= =20 [...] ciao Giovanni [1] https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix.git/tree/CODE-OF-CONDUCT#n43 [2] https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix.git/tree/CODE-OF-CONDUCT#n69 [3] https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix.git/tree/CODE-OF-CONDUCT#n47 [4] https://web.archive.org/web/20151208143727/https://github.com/opal/opal= /issues/941 [5] https://web.archive.org/web/20151105174639/https://twitter.com/krainbol= tgreene/status/611569515315507200 =2D-=20 Giovanni Biscuolo Xelera IT Infrastructures --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEERcxjuFJYydVfNLI5030Op87MORIFAlvXAZkACgkQ030Op87M ORLVYA//dmJx6B8WQgilTcrISkB7CELoxTO5rKchQOrRenS7+kbpmqBi7qgP1nlP V1kdQaDNs77+xqhQAAykxOP7crx3/QdWF7Qj5qYuKkuOocr2N/OB+Gbo56peR725 YqnQcuBNs5lawC61BxDm0ybm28fdsTk9L7hkfM9dFe9gOH5qvcqE46P5WaoP8/n1 39gzDohkkAGZ6e1GnnBYqbsZEWpXtK+m8+GxxIUhjAHkuOiQpdxWdlp2wJ0YuY/g 7AzvPERd9hUeWjJ/xBgX9YcXP1h5ZI00Ga5Z6YZNiRPbPsFDEbFWhgUCdW2atzxz g1Xlruu6kBlZH5HzXuaYd9hxtVgbqphEzER0bxYbzn/xUe45g3bMEKtcR69jUv6F saJZ35SfU1YOPOQO45hd6eGscGWzs7c8PNDZXGW4bRZsRhlxxpM4aCWrdbFiiRs4 xwvnhMpYWOYsaKWH2BT2SGvch2DhkO+MwlSGvw/UT8R5Pjxzv54e/ss81LQE2J9L SV5YzPPs4DfeOdwZu17jZBwWWDgLh7ryxTWXpBeT1+LFM2iH2ljtnXwxk0jP57Wc EQKFTJe7u9IgDNQLHYuw5P8To+au8WHvxrDNHPwmCHA+OjCWuiNFEDOCdBvWumL5 X3VDxFK/ylLD1vpO9/FNgiqACtGxdmrn/KUmq3vB+TqWYdQWHRQ= =p0+1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--