From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp1 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id KBfFHgLCcWHCVAEAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 21:39:46 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp1 with LMTPS id KCRJGgLCcWH8bQAAbx9fmQ (envelope-from ) for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 19:39:46 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2FD3A5191 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 21:39:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:52730 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mdduj-0005Cm-AG for larch@yhetil.org; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 15:39:45 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:59940) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mddub-0005C6-15 for guix-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 15:39:37 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:33760) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mddua-0003hZ-Ow; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 15:39:36 -0400 Received: from 91-160-117-201.subs.proxad.net ([91.160.117.201]:57259 helo=ribbon) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mddua-0002mG-FU; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 15:39:36 -0400 From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= To: Katherine Cox-Buday Subject: Re: Opining on "modern" development practices (was Re: Merging the =?utf-8?B?4oCcYmluYXJ54oCd?= NPM importer?) References: <87mto8zpll.fsf@airmail.cc> <87zgs3829p.fsf@gnu.org> <87fsttuys3.fsf@dustycloud.org> <877deo473m.fsf@gmail.com> <87a6jeayuf.fsf@ngyro.com> <871r4opfbf.fsf@gmail.com> <87mtnbpv1z.fsf@gnu.org> <87mtnbfyhs.fsf_-_@gmail.com> X-URL: http://www.fdn.fr/~lcourtes/ X-Revolutionary-Date: 30 =?utf-8?Q?Vend=C3=A9miaire?= an 230 de la =?utf-8?Q?R=C3=A9volution?= X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x090B11993D9AEBB5 X-PGP-Key: http://www.fdn.fr/~lcourtes/ludovic.asc X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3CE4 6455 8A84 FDC6 9DB4 0CFB 090B 1199 3D9A EBB5 X-OS: x86_64-pc-linux-gnu Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 21:39:33 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87mtnbfyhs.fsf_-_@gmail.com> (Katherine Cox-Buday's message of "Thu, 14 Oct 2021 09:54:23 -0500") Message-ID: <87lf2mxj4a.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: guix-devel@gnu.org Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1634845186; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post; bh=i19YrBWxmm35FrMflEckqA7UN4bKrl2LcW7HPT2v9h4=; b=HZyU743hb7R3T/l8fqsqIkMHwJQn/4Ba3cLk2OEtI40G5YgJYpll8etyhRDsR14Nc++luf kHSvJm7ux56a8IdWmGzBzmcVEcffA0cQASuKNKBMid1xUudQIJ43PxNLG/2eWCTQSl3aaI qun2i1hY/+we1nsKNIXMFuJrTfuifA/4ffoy0qJqA/IbOPqVtjFjtn/f79ZgfSa1l1SJed qZ3aIWbzc8r/DPfKnkPvyvjMX75z0BfJgwzp80dcR7lxXRQgXut/RhLvFBe0njyRXen4Jj RUplxqv2Ky662tkPdGZKwmZE+cSAP5wklf041CJTBl2m5oPLEjmwhziFqMlMSg== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1634845186; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=O1w2vmngug8hDW5QTzck58OTIXHugo+1fjpiA4zeuI00fjqC/RmnIQBmJc0OAuXBqFQwKS 2STgafCcLqIDL4bWyeMM89X/gAL0mjTM+2b+U/LQ/QQUXmzYVurAGC/f2ILgrF3QCVyq+t bPu5nEYdspnLvexrtT6Sf3EH04qSwQlXztdc2yQZpvLi/C1UJ1VZKMgHnWMbn2xcN6VIxo qFh6+DEszAmC61qLpE1dNWIBwUVlpRUmKHGMQNScnJ8SygXlnKF6zt0/zuntEKCPoV3RQz jEBMr5GV+EDJuILyX7teWANsNaQ41CClQ/EGEcFo3NpWRJJZbvMbCSZrRVtVDw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gnu.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -2.93 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gnu.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 2FD3A5191 X-Spam-Score: -2.93 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: Qysp5QHNieTe Hi Katherine, Katherine Cox-Buday skribis: > Ludovic Court=C3=A8s writes: > >> It=E2=80=99s an unusual situation, but it seems that =E2=80=9Cmodern=E2= =80=9D development >> practices make it hard or impossible to meet our standards in the first >> place; yet, we=E2=80=99re missing out on a whole range of free software = packages >> by not doing anything. Offering the tool while not compromising on our >> standards seems like a reasonable middle ground. > > I think this is yet another example of the "worse is better"[1] debate, s= eemingly still ongoing in the world, thirty years later. > > I don't have much practical to say on the subject, but a few things have = often occurred to me which someone may find useful or interesting to rumina= te on: > > 1. The premise of the "worse is better" philosophy seems to me to have be= en > proven true. Development tools and environments which are easier to ge= t, > start using, and distribute, proliferate. And these communities produc= e the > most software. As you pointed out, some of the software itself is free= and > useful. > > 2. Sometimes these ecosystems (e.g. Javascript) are so volatile, bad thin= gs fall > out. It is difficult to stay abreast of changes, there are security is= sues > (e.g. tainting a very common dependency, bootstrapping issues, etc), > maintenance issues, and lots of wasted effort rewriting things. Still,= a > large percentage of developers' time and energy goes into that ecosyst= em > because of point one, and they create useful things. > > 3. Sometimes these ecosystems are so volatile, good things fall out. Thro= ugh the > lens of experience, solutions and tools are created which address the = hard > won lessons. > > 4. This seems to be how nature and evolution work. > > Me? I like well-ordered things that have been thoughtfully produced. But = I think about number four a lot. I do too. :-) My early free software experience was that of a project managed in typical MIT style: the Hurd; I learned a lot from that. In Guix, I think we=E2=80=99ve always tried from Day 1 to do the Right Thin= g, but also from Day 1, we=E2=80=99ve always tried not to go too far and to = =E2=80=9Ccut corners=E2=80=9D when doing the Right Thing would have jeopardized practica= lity. The package simplification work that landed this summer in =E2=80=98core-updates=E2=80=99 is an example of a case where the Right Thin= g was delayed for several years because it just wasn=E2=80=99t attainable in a timely fas= hion back then. Merging the =E2=80=9Cbinary=E2=80=9D npm importer IMO is one way to acknowl= edge that there=E2=80=99s a very concrete use case, that we=E2=80=99re unable to addr= ess it the Right Way, but that we offer a middle ground for users. Ludo=E2=80=99.