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[172.221.246.205]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h17sm1659961ilj.19.2021.10.28.08.01.39 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 28 Oct 2021 08:01:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Katherine Cox-Buday To: Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s?= Subject: Re: Opining on "modern" development practices (was Re: Merging the =?utf-8?B?4oCcYmluYXJ54oCd?= NPM importer?) References: <87mto8zpll.fsf@airmail.cc> <87zgs3829p.fsf@gnu.org> <87fsttuys3.fsf@dustycloud.org> <877deo473m.fsf@gmail.com> <87a6jeayuf.fsf@ngyro.com> <871r4opfbf.fsf@gmail.com> <87mtnbpv1z.fsf@gnu.org> <87mtnbfyhs.fsf_-_@gmail.com> <87lf2mxj4a.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 10:01:39 -0500 In-Reply-To: <87lf2mxj4a.fsf@gnu.org> ("Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s=22'?= =?utf-8?Q?s?= message of "Thu, 21 Oct 2021 21:39:33 +0200") Message-ID: <87lf2d9orw.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31; envelope-from=cox.katherine.e@gmail.com; helo=mail-io1-xd31.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: guix-devel@gnu.org Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1635433368; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=gTswBl9qwceUroKoBcQUFfLMuqOAQtV2MxNPRWSegZY=; b=Iw7BShnimx6aBBO1tCJgJHHJBHMZ69XunUjiIQi2WVKO241atFPWWZ+eZORQVR/sO/AUDY Hv/tJI6rqCroR9zwJecMWU9IQZj6gINPMsjynEIxNwBtqGN7Yo95dUl0Ltukr06HiaKbmv 9c65PqrVMD2eyx+oSVKijMyYg4uKBlY3Ub+OWJxAzziw1IsnrvdJUa7FitouQthfYDT5p2 HK5sk5n9WirTVTY+IP7VWlcInm7JEhYgtM4sRlibqFO3+3MNrUPhZE0c2g9gFJGan0tITP lrYRbrhcsyoBELoT3bgAar2HzeLLL/Ge6tbTZWFKPv7/K1A33M1//yfmBORCPQ== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1635433368; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=VfOFEFtzCMVLi/ALJu5RQfH7hvgQZ/FZMCGvvmVTXbv8NZ0+Hz0XEuRnS5UfIAqT6AGNp6 DI/t/Kj8SXDeMF1sQy12DQ77MUCBdm9fK7zoHFfUoeLECZBQeLq+4QaifJrk/XYPFvOS9b GFbbUbMCiB/qA/UXMwtr8VnTmwadiGcEtVB/2NUjD5pzwLlexTRHhEwSKxpsLWiuqMPZ4q 9QddJGxsyZDwPR+CRMOb1gyGUgZbCMLRke1+HMsKEhwYa7CcZjYB/vgRsoD93OUO0Y3Nv7 B0xXGEiFzgncGlh8CGc9rczZMe30nEhf7AEQJ38V/5IOXrsYPl3ln1lJmnhRbg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=FLf4goPp; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -3.76 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=FLf4goPp; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 9207933486 X-Spam-Score: -3.76 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: vTlPx2Onf40C Ludovic Court=C3=A8s writes: > Hi Katherine, > > Katherine Cox-Buday skribis: > >> Ludovic Court=C3=A8s writes: >> >>> It=E2=80=99s an unusual situation, but it seems that =E2=80=9Cmodern=E2= =80=9D development >>> practices make it hard or impossible to meet our standards in the first >>> place; yet, we=E2=80=99re missing out on a whole range of free software= packages >>> by not doing anything. Offering the tool while not compromising on our >>> standards seems like a reasonable middle ground. >> >> I think this is yet another example of the "worse is better"[1] debate, >> seemingly still ongoing in the world, thirty years later. >> >> I don't have much practical to say on the subject, but a few things have= often >> occurred to me which someone may find useful or interesting to ruminate = on: >> >> 1. The premise of the "worse is better" philosophy seems to me to have b= een >> proven true. Development tools and environments which are easier to g= et, >> start using, and distribute, proliferate. And these communities produ= ce the >> most software. As you pointed out, some of the software itself is fre= e and >> useful. >> >> 2. Sometimes these ecosystems (e.g. Javascript) are so volatile, bad thi= ngs fall >> out. It is difficult to stay abreast of changes, there are security i= ssues >> (e.g. tainting a very common dependency, bootstrapping issues, etc), >> maintenance issues, and lots of wasted effort rewriting things. Still= , a >> large percentage of developers' time and energy goes into that ecosys= tem >> because of point one, and they create useful things. >> >> 3. Sometimes these ecosystems are so volatile, good things fall out. Thr= ough the >> lens of experience, solutions and tools are created which address the= hard >> won lessons. >> >> 4. This seems to be how nature and evolution work. >> >> Me? I like well-ordered things that have been thoughtfully produced. But= I think about number four a lot. > > I do too. :-) Think about #4, or like well-ordered things? > My early free software experience was that of a project managed in > typical MIT style: the Hurd; I learned a lot from that. Have you written about this anywhere? I'd love to hear your opinions. > In Guix, I think we=E2=80=99ve always tried from Day 1 to do the Right Th= ing, > but also from Day 1, we=E2=80=99ve always tried not to go too far and to = =E2=80=9Ccut > corners=E2=80=9D when doing the Right Thing would have jeopardized practi= cality. > > The package simplification work that landed this summer in > =E2=80=98core-updates=E2=80=99 is an example of a case where the Right Th= ing was delayed > for several years because it just wasn=E2=80=99t attainable in a timely f= ashion > back then. I have been trying to follow the project more closely for the past few mont= hs, but I have completely missed this simplification work. Is there somewhe= re I can read about it? Scroll back through guix-patches maybe? > Merging the =E2=80=9Cbinary=E2=80=9D npm importer IMO is one way to ackno= wledge that > there=E2=80=99s a very concrete use case, that we=E2=80=99re unable to ad= dress it the > Right Way, but that we offer a middle ground for users. Thanks for these comments, and the maintainers' stewardship of Guix. I beli= eve taking the middle way is usually the correct path, and I think Guix has= benefited from it, and will continue to do so. --=20 Katherine