Emacs next variants

Emacs next variants

[Cayetano Santos]

Hi guix,

  As for today, the inheritance of emacs, master branch, variants is as
  follows

    (emacs-next-tree-sitter (emacs-next-gtk (emacs-next (emacs))))

  Having tree-sitter is really useful, but optional, and doesn’t produce
  any harm to users. They may opt to use it, or not.

  This is not the case of the gtk variant. If one wants to use
  tree-sitter, the gtk variant is mandatory. When under x server, this
  produces a welcome warning advising about unattended effects, crashes,
  and leak of support when combining gtk emacs with x server.

  So, is there any reason for this dependency chain ? Why not ?

    (emacs-next-gtk (emacs-next-tree-sitter (emacs-next (emacs))))

Best,

Cayetano

Re: Emacs next variants

[Simon Tournier]

Hi,

On jeu., 09 mars 2023 at 19:51, Cayetano Santos <csantosb@inventati.org> wrote:

>     (emacs-next-tree-sitter (emacs-next-gtk (emacs-next (emacs))))

[...]

>     (emacs-next-gtk (emacs-next-tree-sitter (emacs-next (emacs))))

Note that emacs-next-tree-sitter is not from the 29 branch (emacs-next)
but from the 30 branch.  Therefore, it would mean emacs-next-pgtk also
be an Emacs 30 version.  I do not use them so I have not opinion.

And why not split the chain, i.e., having:

        (define-public emacs-next-pgtk
          (package
            (inherit emacs-next)

and

        (define-public emacs-next-tree-sitter
            (package
              (inherit emacs-next)

?

Cheers,
simon

Re: Emacs next variants

[Cayetano Santos]

>ven. 10 mars 2023 at 13:07, Simon Tournier <zimon.toutoune@gmail.com> wrote:

> Note that emacs-next-tree-sitter is not from the 29 branch (emacs-next)
> but from the 30 branch.  Therefore, it would mean emacs-next-pgtk also
> be an Emacs 30 version.  I do not use them so I have not opinion.
>
> And why not split the chain, i.e., having:
>
>         (define-public emacs-next-pgtk
>           (package
>             (inherit emacs-next)
>
> and
>
>         (define-public emacs-next-tree-sitter
>             (package
>               (inherit emacs-next)
>
> ?

Fine with me, even if to me emacs-next means latest from master,
including tree-sitter. You decide to use the feature, or not.

Gtk is something else, as it imposes a strong limitation on the use of
emacs (wayland).

C.

Re: Emacs next variants

[Simon Tournier]

Hi,

On Fri, 10 Mar 2023 at 16:04, Cayetano Santos <csantosb@inventati.org> wrote:

> Fine with me, even if to me emacs-next means latest from master,
> including tree-sitter. You decide to use the feature, or not.

Just to be sure we are on the same wavelength. :-)

The package emacs-next is not currently following "master" and instead
is following the branch Emacs 29 -- the next release of Emacs.  As far
I know, this branch does not contain the feature Tree-sitter.
Instead, the feature Tree-sitter is in the branch "master", which will
be branched later as Emacs 30 and somehow will be the next next
release of Emacs.

Cheers,
simon

Re: Emacs next variants

[John Kehayias]

Hi all,

On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 04:39 PM, Simon Tournier wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Fri, 10 Mar 2023 at 16:04, Cayetano Santos <csantosb@inventati.org> wrote:
>
>> Fine with me, even if to me emacs-next means latest from master,
>> including tree-sitter. You decide to use the feature, or not.
>
> Just to be sure we are on the same wavelength. :-)
>
> The package emacs-next is not currently following "master" and instead
> is following the branch Emacs 29 -- the next release of Emacs.  As far
> I know, this branch does not contain the feature Tree-sitter.
> Instead, the feature Tree-sitter is in the branch "master", which will
> be branched later as Emacs 30 and somehow will be the next next
> release of Emacs.
>

During this discussion some changes were made to this inheritance structure in

<https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix.git/commit/?id=b4c64ddce44bb31332784c3f8e037bd565194604>

and

<https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix.git/commit/?id=070c335a91d5c245f0360e12c794e9109f9faaf1>

by Andrew Tropin. I've cc'ed him here to make sure he sees this discussion to make sure everyone is on the same page. I've seen notes before of pgtk being only for Wayland and potentially causing issues on X (this was some time ago, I can dig up the emacs threads if anyone wants). Personally I've never had issues in the past with pgtk on X, but haven't used it in quite some time. Just a note to keep in mind.

John

Re: Emacs next variants

[Simon Tournier]

Hi,

On Fri, 10 Mar 2023 at 17:59, John Kehayias
<john.kehayias@protonmail.com> wrote:

> During this discussion some changes were made to this inheritance structure in
>
> <https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix.git/commit/?id=b4c64ddce44bb31332784c3f8e037bd565194604>
>
> and
>
> <https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix.git/commit/?id=070c335a91d5c245f0360e12c794e9109f9faaf1>

Thanks for pointing that.  From my understanding, it does not change
what Cayetanos is raising: emacs-next-tree-sitter is built using
'--with-pgtk'.  In fact, the package emacs-next-tree-sitter is built
using the master branch (Emacs 30 unbranched yet) with tree-sitter
*and* pgtk support.

Cheers,
simon

Re: Emacs next variants

[Cayetano Santos]

>ven. 10 mars 2023 at 19:14, Simon Tournier <zimon.toutoune@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Fri, 10 Mar 2023 at 17:59, John Kehayias
> <john.kehayias@protonmail.com> wrote:
>
>> During this discussion some changes were made to this inheritance structure in
>>
>> <https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix.git/commit/?id=b4c64ddce44bb31332784c3f8e037bd565194604>
>>
>> and
>>
>> <https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix.git/commit/?id=070c335a91d5c245f0360e12c794e9109f9faaf1>
>
> Thanks for pointing that.  From my understanding, it does not change
> what Cayetanos is raising: emacs-next-tree-sitter is built using
> '--with-pgtk'.  In fact, the package emacs-next-tree-sitter is built
> using the master branch (Emacs 30 unbranched yet) with tree-sitter
> *and* pgtk support.
>
> Cheers,
> simon

As for the NEWS-29 file:

"Running this configuration on X is known to have problems, such as
undesirable frame positioning and various issues with keyboard input of
sequences such as 'C-;' and 'C-S-u'."

C.

Re: Emacs next variants

[Andrew Tropin]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1455 bytes --]

On 2023-03-10 19:14, Simon Tournier wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Fri, 10 Mar 2023 at 17:59, John Kehayias
> <john.kehayias@protonmail.com> wrote:
>
>> During this discussion some changes were made to this inheritance structure in
>>
>> <https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix.git/commit/?id=b4c64ddce44bb31332784c3f8e037bd565194604>
>>
>> and
>>
>> <https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix.git/commit/?id=070c335a91d5c245f0360e12c794e9109f9faaf1>
>
> Thanks for pointing that.  From my understanding, it does not change
> what Cayetanos is raising: emacs-next-tree-sitter is built using
> '--with-pgtk'.  In fact, the package emacs-next-tree-sitter is built
> using the master branch (Emacs 30 unbranched yet) with tree-sitter
> *and* pgtk support.

Hi everyone!

Also, CCed Liliana.

Will share my motivation behind this desicion below:

After a separation of emacs-next-tree-sitter 
https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix.git/commit/?id=420cf2bf2a

I heard a few complains from wayland users that now they have to choose
between pgtk emacs or tree-sitter emacs (which runs only under xwayland
and is very blurry) and because I didn't faced any issues with pgtk on
X, I think it's more inclusive to inherit tree-sitter from pgtk.

The other option is to have two tree-sitter versions, but I suspect this
way we will get a combinatorical explosion soon :)

Have a nice weekend, everyone!

-- 
Best regards,
Andrew Tropin

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 832 bytes --]

Re: Emacs next variants

[Andrew Tropin]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1525 bytes --]

On 2023-03-10 19:24, Cayetano Santos wrote:

>>ven. 10 mars 2023 at 19:14, Simon Tournier <zimon.toutoune@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Fri, 10 Mar 2023 at 17:59, John Kehayias
>> <john.kehayias@protonmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> During this discussion some changes were made to this inheritance structure in
>>>
>>> <https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix.git/commit/?id=b4c64ddce44bb31332784c3f8e037bd565194604>
>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>> <https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix.git/commit/?id=070c335a91d5c245f0360e12c794e9109f9faaf1>
>>
>> Thanks for pointing that.  From my understanding, it does not change
>> what Cayetanos is raising: emacs-next-tree-sitter is built using
>> '--with-pgtk'.  In fact, the package emacs-next-tree-sitter is built
>> using the master branch (Emacs 30 unbranched yet) with tree-sitter
>> *and* pgtk support.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> simon
>
> As for the NEWS-29 file:
>
> "Running this configuration on X is known to have problems, such as
> undesirable frame positioning and various issues with keyboard input of
> sequences such as 'C-;' and 'C-S-u'."
>
> C.

I haven't used X for a while, but if it's still the case for 30 version,
I guess we can inherit pgtk from tree-sitter.

This will update emacs-next-pgtk from emacs-29 to somewhere near 30 on
master, but I it should be fine. I use the same commit as
emacs-next-tree-sitter in my local tree-sitter+pgtk emacs package and
everything seems to work for me.

WDYT?

-- 
Best regards,
Andrew Tropin

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 832 bytes --]

Re: Emacs next variants

[Liliana Marie Prikler]

Am Freitag, dem 10.03.2023 um 22:44 +0400 schrieb Andrew Tropin:
> > > Thanks for pointing that.  From my understanding, it does not
> > > change what Cayetanos is raising: emacs-next-tree-sitter is built
> > > using '--with-pgtk'.  In fact, the package emacs-next-tree-sitter
> > > is built using the master branch (Emacs 30 unbranched yet) with
> > > tree-sitter *and* pgtk support.
> > > 
> > > Cheers,
> > > simon
> > 
> > As for the NEWS-29 file:
> > 
> > "Running this configuration on X is known to have problems, such as
> > undesirable frame positioning and various issues with keyboard
> > input of sequences such as 'C-;' and 'C-S-u'."
> > 
> > C.
> 
> I haven't used X for a while, but if it's still the case for 30
> version, I guess we can inherit pgtk from tree-sitter.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the point of C-S-u with pure GTK to
use GNOME's ibus widget?  Granted, we have other problems with ibus
currently, but it's still a part that makes the pgtk branch feel
gnomier.

As for tree-sitter-with/without-gtk, I have no opinion here.  We could
try exporting package rewriters so that everyone can have their cup of
tea, but maintaining one's own Emacs on the user/channel level ought
not to be too difficult either.

Cheers

Re: Emacs next variants

[Cayetano Santos]

>ven. 10 mars 2023 at 22:44, Andrew Tropin <andrew@trop.in> wrote:

> [[PGP Signed Part:Undecided]]
> On 2023-03-10 19:24, Cayetano Santos wrote:
>
>>>ven. 10 mars 2023 at 19:14, Simon Tournier <zimon.toutoune@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> On Fri, 10 Mar 2023 at 17:59, John Kehayias
>>> <john.kehayias@protonmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> During this discussion some changes were made to this inheritance structure in
>>>>
>>>> <https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix.git/commit/?id=b4c64ddce44bb31332784c3f8e037bd565194604>
>>>>
>>>> and
>>>>
>>>> <https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix.git/commit/?id=070c335a91d5c245f0360e12c794e9109f9faaf1>
>>>
>>> Thanks for pointing that.  From my understanding, it does not change
>>> what Cayetanos is raising: emacs-next-tree-sitter is built using
>>> '--with-pgtk'.  In fact, the package emacs-next-tree-sitter is built
>>> using the master branch (Emacs 30 unbranched yet) with tree-sitter
>>> *and* pgtk support.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> simon
>>
>> As for the NEWS-29 file:
>>
>> "Running this configuration on X is known to have problems, such as
>> undesirable frame positioning and various issues with keyboard input of
>> sequences such as 'C-;' and 'C-S-u'."
>>
>> C.
>
> I haven't used X for a while, but if it's still the case for 30 version,
> I guess we can inherit pgtk from tree-sitter.
>
> This will update emacs-next-pgtk from emacs-29 to somewhere near 30 on
> master, but I it should be fine. I use the same commit as
> emacs-next-tree-sitter in my local tree-sitter+pgtk emacs package and
> everything seems to work for me.
>
> WDYT?

Personally, the closer to master, the better (and the simpler). What you
propose, inheritance of pgtk from tree-sitter, fits me well.

C.

Re: Emacs next variants

[Andrew Tropin]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2072 bytes --]

On 2023-03-10 21:39, Cayetano Santos wrote:

>>ven. 10 mars 2023 at 22:44, Andrew Tropin <andrew@trop.in> wrote:
>
>> [[PGP Signed Part:Undecided]]
>> On 2023-03-10 19:24, Cayetano Santos wrote:
>>
>>>>ven. 10 mars 2023 at 19:14, Simon Tournier <zimon.toutoune@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, 10 Mar 2023 at 17:59, John Kehayias
>>>> <john.kehayias@protonmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> During this discussion some changes were made to this inheritance structure in
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix.git/commit/?id=b4c64ddce44bb31332784c3f8e037bd565194604>
>>>>>
>>>>> and
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix.git/commit/?id=070c335a91d5c245f0360e12c794e9109f9faaf1>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for pointing that.  From my understanding, it does not change
>>>> what Cayetanos is raising: emacs-next-tree-sitter is built using
>>>> '--with-pgtk'.  In fact, the package emacs-next-tree-sitter is built
>>>> using the master branch (Emacs 30 unbranched yet) with tree-sitter
>>>> *and* pgtk support.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> simon
>>>
>>> As for the NEWS-29 file:
>>>
>>> "Running this configuration on X is known to have problems, such as
>>> undesirable frame positioning and various issues with keyboard input of
>>> sequences such as 'C-;' and 'C-S-u'."
>>>
>>> C.
>>
>> I haven't used X for a while, but if it's still the case for 30 version,
>> I guess we can inherit pgtk from tree-sitter.
>>
>> This will update emacs-next-pgtk from emacs-29 to somewhere near 30 on
>> master, but I it should be fine. I use the same commit as
>> emacs-next-tree-sitter in my local tree-sitter+pgtk emacs package and
>> everything seems to work for me.
>>
>> WDYT?
>
> Personally, the closer to master, the better (and the simpler). What you
> propose, inheritance of pgtk from tree-sitter, fits me well.

Ok, I changed the inheritance order, so now non-wayland users can have
tree-sitter without pgtk and wayland pgtk users will have tree-sitter as
well :)

-- 
Best regards,
Andrew Tropin

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 832 bytes --]

Re: Emacs next variants

[Andrew Tropin]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1719 bytes --]

On 2023-03-10 20:36, Liliana Marie Prikler wrote:

> Am Freitag, dem 10.03.2023 um 22:44 +0400 schrieb Andrew Tropin:
>> > > Thanks for pointing that.  From my understanding, it does not
>> > > change what Cayetanos is raising: emacs-next-tree-sitter is built
>> > > using '--with-pgtk'.  In fact, the package emacs-next-tree-sitter
>> > > is built using the master branch (Emacs 30 unbranched yet) with
>> > > tree-sitter *and* pgtk support.
>> > > 
>> > > Cheers,
>> > > simon
>> > 
>> > As for the NEWS-29 file:
>> > 
>> > "Running this configuration on X is known to have problems, such as
>> > undesirable frame positioning and various issues with keyboard
>> > input of sequences such as 'C-;' and 'C-S-u'."
>> > 
>> > C.
>> 
>> I haven't used X for a while, but if it's still the case for 30
>> version, I guess we can inherit pgtk from tree-sitter.
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the point of C-S-u with pure GTK to
> use GNOME's ibus widget?  Granted, we have other problems with ibus
> currently, but it's still a part that makes the pgtk branch feel
> gnomier.
>

I'm not very into the details of implementation of pgtk and how it
affects C-S-u, also, I don't usually use C-S-u, so can't say much here.

> As for tree-sitter-with/without-gtk, I have no opinion here.  We could
> try exporting package rewriters so that everyone can have their cup of
> tea, but maintaining one's own Emacs on the user/channel level ought
> not to be too difficult either.

I guess inheriting pgtk from tree-sitter looks most logical here: no
potential problems for X users, tree-sitter for wayland users.  Updated
the inheritance hierarchy.

-- 
Best regards,
Andrew Tropin

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 832 bytes --]

Re: Emacs next variants

[Liliana Marie Prikler]

Am Sonntag, dem 12.03.2023 um 09:18 +0400 schrieb Andrew Tropin:
> > As for tree-sitter-with/without-gtk, I have no opinion here.  We
> > could try exporting package rewriters so that everyone can have
> > their cup of tea, but maintaining one's own Emacs on the
> > user/channel level ought not to be too difficult either.
> 
> I guess inheriting pgtk from tree-sitter looks most logical here: no
> potential problems for X users, tree-sitter for wayland users. 
> Updated the inheritance hierarchy.
For the future, I think we should be careful not to be too close to the
master branch.  emacs-next has thus far historically been a package to
try out things for the next release, not the one after that.  The
inclusion of a package variant with tree-sitter necessitated a change,
but for packages that don't need it we should go back to tailing pre-
releases as soon as reasonable.

Cheers

Re: Emacs next variants

[Andrew Tropin]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1283 bytes --]

On 2023-03-12 08:46, Liliana Marie Prikler wrote:

> Am Sonntag, dem 12.03.2023 um 09:18 +0400 schrieb Andrew Tropin:
>> > As for tree-sitter-with/without-gtk, I have no opinion here.  We
>> > could try exporting package rewriters so that everyone can have
>> > their cup of tea, but maintaining one's own Emacs on the
>> > user/channel level ought not to be too difficult either.
>> 
>> I guess inheriting pgtk from tree-sitter looks most logical here: no
>> potential problems for X users, tree-sitter for wayland users. 
>> Updated the inheritance hierarchy.
> For the future, I think we should be careful not to be too close to the
> master branch.  emacs-next has thus far historically been a package to
> try out things for the next release, not the one after that.  The
> inclusion of a package variant with tree-sitter necessitated a change,
> but for packages that don't need it we should go back to tailing pre-
> releases as soon as reasonable.

Sure, I think after the release of emacs-29 we can make emacs-next to
track emacs-30 and deprecate emacs-next-tree-sitter and after emacs-30
release we will include tree-sitter in emacs package itself and also we
will be able to move emacs-next-pgtk to emacs-pgtk.

-- 
Best regards,
Andrew Tropin

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 832 bytes --]

Re: Emacs next variants

[indieterminacy]

On 12-03-2023 08:46, Liliana Marie Prikler wrote:
> Am Sonntag, dem 12.03.2023 um 09:18 +0400 schrieb Andrew Tropin:
>> > As for tree-sitter-with/without-gtk, I have no opinion here.  We
>> > could try exporting package rewriters so that everyone can have
>> > their cup of tea, but maintaining one's own Emacs on the
>> > user/channel level ought not to be too difficult either.
>> 
>> I guess inheriting pgtk from tree-sitter looks most logical here: no
>> potential problems for X users, tree-sitter for wayland users. 
>> Updated the inheritance hierarchy.
> For the future, I think we should be careful not to be too close to the
> master branch.  emacs-next has thus far historically been a package to
> try out things for the next release, not the one after that.  The
> inclusion of a package variant with tree-sitter necessitated a change,
> but for packages that don't need it we should go back to tailing pre-
> releases as soon as reasonable.
> 
Out of curiosity, where do such prescriptions concerning one tool or a 
set of tools get documented?

Or is it currently a situation whereby enough people with such 
acculumated knowledge and experience as in the vicinity when somebody 
wants to make relevant changes?

Thanks,

-- 
Jonathan McHugh
indieterminacy@libre.brussels

Re: Emacs next variants

[Liliana Marie Prikler]

Am Sonntag, dem 12.03.2023 um 10:46 +0100 schrieb indieterminacy:
> Out of curiosity, where do such prescriptions concerning one tool or
> a set of tools get documented?
It isn't, but note the manual on version numbers leads with
> We usually package only the latest version of a given free software
> project.  But sometimes, for instance for incompatible library
> versions, two (or more) versions of the same package are needed.
emacs is a notable exception here due to emacs next almost always
existing.

Cheers

Re: Emacs next variants

[Mekeor Melire]

2023-03-10 16:39 zimon.toutoune@gmail.com:

> As far I know, this branch does not contain the feature 
> Tree-sitter. Instead, the feature Tree-sitter is in the branch 
> "master", which will be branched later as Emacs 30 and somehow 
> will be the next next release of Emacs.

2023-03-12 12:47 andrew@trop.in:

> Sure, I think [...] after emacs-30 release we will include 
> tree-sitter in emacs package itself and also we will be able to 
> move emacs-next-pgtk to emacs-pgtk.

Emacs 29.1 will support tree-sitter. This mail-thread seems to 
have been mislead by the wrong assumption that Emacs 30 will be 
the first version to support tree-sitter.

Feel free to check "etc/NEWS" within branch "emacs-29" of Emacs' 
repository and correct me if I'm wrong: 
https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/tree/etc/NEWS?h=emacs-29#n36

Re: Emacs next variants

[Andrew Tropin]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1147 bytes --]

On 2023-04-26 18:52, Mekeor Melire wrote:

> 2023-03-10 16:39 zimon.toutoune@gmail.com:
>
>> As far I know, this branch does not contain the feature 
>> Tree-sitter. Instead, the feature Tree-sitter is in the branch 
>> "master", which will be branched later as Emacs 30 and somehow 
>> will be the next next release of Emacs.
>
> 2023-03-12 12:47 andrew@trop.in:
>
>> Sure, I think [...] after emacs-30 release we will include 
>> tree-sitter in emacs package itself and also we will be able to 
>> move emacs-next-pgtk to emacs-pgtk.
>
> Emacs 29.1 will support tree-sitter. This mail-thread seems to 
> have been mislead by the wrong assumption that Emacs 30 will be 
> the first version to support tree-sitter.
>
> Feel free to check "etc/NEWS" within branch "emacs-29" of Emacs' 
> repository and correct me if I'm wrong: 
> https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/tree/etc/NEWS?h=emacs-29#n36

You are right, thank you for the note!  BTW, Liliana is working on Emacs
29 preparation right now and adjusting respective emacs packages here:

https://issues.guix.gnu.org/63984

-- 
Best regards,
Andrew Tropin

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 832 bytes --]