revert Guix French translation: bootable ?

revert Guix French translation: bootable ?

[pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)]

Hello.  I have a question on what term should be used in the French
translation.  I am not proficient in French myself, but I wonder if we
should revert a translation change.

In the French translation, Léane Grasser (harmful-breeze) [1] today in
guix-translations commit [2] changed occurrences of
« chargeur d'amorçage »
as well as
« chargeur de démarrage »
to the English term
« bootloader ».
Some uses of amorçage in other contexts are still unchanged, some are not.

Amorçage and démarrage are not mentioned in the glossary [3].

I see mention of « amorçable » on Wikipedia [4], giving the impression
that French terms are preferred by the Académie Française. (?)

Regards,
Florian

[1] Léane’s self-introduction:
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/trans@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/VK2PVXARJEAD36L4ZVYZXYZ6B2LIRXIG/
[2] commit:
https://framagit.org/tyreunom/guix-translations/-/commit/c06978310eb9cc0ee992289314ba42ddf16db9cc
[3] glossary:
https://translate.fedoraproject.org/zen/guix/glossary/fr/
[4] Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_in_computing#French

Re: revert Guix French translation: bootable ?

[Léane GRASSER via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.]

Hi,

Sorry for the confusion, I should've explained and proposed this change before going ahead and mass-editing.

The gist is that "amorçage" is not used in everyday French as a computer science term. I usually encounter the words "démarrage" or "boot" in conversations and texts written in French (France)—"amorçage" and "amorçable" are much less common words.
The same logic also applies to "bootable" and "bootloader", I believe they are way more likely to be easily understood.

Hopefully this clarifies the situation. I am fairly confident in this change, but I would appreciate hearing other people's opinions on this nevertheless.

Thanks,
Léane

-------- Message d'origine --------
Le 06/11/2024 22:41, pelzflorian (Florian Pelz) <pelzflorian@pelzflorian.de> a écrit :

>  Hello.  I have a question on what term should be used in the French
>  translation.  I am not proficient in French myself, but I wonder if we
>  should revert a translation change.
>  
>  In the French translation, Léane Grasser (harmful-breeze) [1] today in
>  guix-translations commit [2] changed occurrences of
>  « chargeur d'amorçage »
>  as well as
>  « chargeur de démarrage »
>  to the English term
>  « bootloader ».
>  Some uses of amorçage in other contexts are still unchanged, some are not.
>  
>  Amorçage and démarrage are not mentioned in the glossary [3].
>  
>  I see mention of « amorçable » on Wikipedia [4], giving the impression
>  that French terms are preferred by the Académie Française. (?)
>  
>  Regards,
>  Florian
>  
>  [1] Léane’s self-introduction:
>  https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/trans@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/VK2PVXARJEAD36L4ZVYZXYZ6B2LIRXIG/
>  [2] commit:
>  https://framagit.org/tyreunom/guix-translations/-/commit/c06978310eb9cc0ee992289314ba42ddf16db9cc
>  [3] glossary:
>  https://translate.fedoraproject.org/zen/guix/glossary/fr/
>  [4] Wikipedia:
>  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_in_computing#French
>

Re: revert Guix French translation: bootable ?

[Julien Lepiller]

Hi Léane,

« chargeur d'amorçage » is used consistently across many projects. It's even the title of the wikipedia page <https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chargeur_d'amor%C3%A7age>.

The English term is also mentionned, so it is correct, but not preferred. I would revert the change, but also mass edit « chargeur de démarrage » to « chargeur d'amorçage », and add it to the glossary.

Le 6 novembre 2024 23:28:48 GMT+01:00, "Léane GRASSER" <leane.grasser@proton.me> a écrit :
>Hi,
>
>Sorry for the confusion, I should've explained and proposed this change before going ahead and mass-editing.
>
>The gist is that "amorçage" is not used in everyday French as a computer science term. I usually encounter the words "démarrage" or "boot" in conversations and texts written in French (France)—"amorçage" and "amorçable" are much less common words.
>The same logic also applies to "bootable" and "bootloader", I believe they are way more likely to be easily understood.
>
>Hopefully this clarifies the situation. I am fairly confident in this change, but I would appreciate hearing other people's opinions on this nevertheless.
>
>Thanks,
>Léane
>
>-------- Message d'origine --------
>Le 06/11/2024 22:41, pelzflorian (Florian Pelz) <pelzflorian@pelzflorian.de> a écrit :
>
>>  Hello.  I have a question on what term should be used in the French
>>  translation.  I am not proficient in French myself, but I wonder if we
>>  should revert a translation change.
>>  
>>  In the French translation, Léane Grasser (harmful-breeze) [1] today in
>>  guix-translations commit [2] changed occurrences of
>>  « chargeur d'amorçage »
>>  as well as
>>  « chargeur de démarrage »
>>  to the English term
>>  « bootloader ».
>>  Some uses of amorçage in other contexts are still unchanged, some are not.
>>  
>>  Amorçage and démarrage are not mentioned in the glossary [3].
>>  
>>  I see mention of « amorçable » on Wikipedia [4], giving the impression
>>  that French terms are preferred by the Académie Française. (?)
>>  
>>  Regards,
>>  Florian
>>  
>>  [1] Léane’s self-introduction:
>>  https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/trans@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/VK2PVXARJEAD36L4ZVYZXYZ6B2LIRXIG/
>>  [2] commit:
>>  https://framagit.org/tyreunom/guix-translations/-/commit/c06978310eb9cc0ee992289314ba42ddf16db9cc
>>  [3] glossary:
>>  https://translate.fedoraproject.org/zen/guix/glossary/fr/
>>  [4] Wikipedia:
>>  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_in_computing#French
>>

Re: revert Guix French translation: bootable ?

[Léane GRASSER via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.]

Hi,

I respectfully disagree with one of your arguments. Oftentimes, computer science Wikipedia articles in French do not have consensual titles because it is not a hard requirement for them to be published. I believe it is the case here—the title has not been discussed on the Discussion page. Therefore, it is very likely that it was chosen by the original author, and kept as-is.

Also note that the source given for "chargeur d'amorçage" is the OQLF and links to the "programme d'amorçage" page. The OQLF is also known to push French terminology even if it's not popular.

I still believe "bootloader" should be used, according to the reasons I mentioned in my previous email—however, I agree that it should be part of the glossary and be used consistently.

Best regards, 
Léane


-------- Message d'origine --------
Le 07/11/2024 07:09, Julien Lepiller <julien@lepiller.eu> a écrit :

>  Hi Léane,
>  
>  « chargeur d'amorçage » is used consistently across many projects. It's even the title of the wikipedia page <https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chargeur_d'amor%C3%A7age>.
>  
>  The English term is also mentionned, so it is correct, but not preferred. I would revert the change, but also mass edit « chargeur de démarrage » to « chargeur d'amorçage », and add it to the glossary.
>  
>  Le 6 novembre 2024 23:28:48 GMT+01:00, "Léane GRASSER" <leane.grasser@proton.me> a écrit :
>  >Hi,
>  >
>  >Sorry for the confusion, I should've explained and proposed this change before going ahead and mass-editing.
>  >
>  >The gist is that "amorçage" is not used in everyday French as a computer science term. I usually encounter the words "démarrage" or "boot" in conversations and texts written in French (France)—"amorçage" and "amorçable" are much less common words.
>  >The same logic also applies to "bootable" and "bootloader", I believe they are way more likely to be easily understood.
>  >
>  >Hopefully this clarifies the situation. I am fairly confident in this change, but I would appreciate hearing other people's opinions on this nevertheless.
>  >
>  >Thanks,
>  >Léane
>  >
>  >-------- Message d'origine --------
>  >Le 06/11/2024 22:41, pelzflorian (Florian Pelz) <pelzflorian@pelzflorian.de> a écrit :
>  >
>  >>  Hello.  I have a question on what term should be used in the French
>  >>  translation.  I am not proficient in French myself, but I wonder if we
>  >>  should revert a translation change.
>  >>
>  >>  In the French translation, Léane Grasser (harmful-breeze) [1] today in
>  >>  guix-translations commit [2] changed occurrences of
>  >>  « chargeur d'amorçage »
>  >>  as well as
>  >>  « chargeur de démarrage »
>  >>  to the English term
>  >>  « bootloader ».
>  >>  Some uses of amorçage in other contexts are still unchanged, some are not.
>  >>
>  >>  Amorçage and démarrage are not mentioned in the glossary [3].
>  >>
>  >>  I see mention of « amorçable » on Wikipedia [4], giving the impression
>  >>  that French terms are preferred by the Académie Française. (?)
>  >>
>  >>  Regards,
>  >>  Florian
>  >>
>  >>  [1] Léane’s self-introduction:
>  >>  https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/trans@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/VK2PVXARJEAD36L4ZVYZXYZ6B2LIRXIG/
>  >>  [2] commit:
>  >>  https://framagit.org/tyreunom/guix-translations/-/commit/c06978310eb9cc0ee992289314ba42ddf16db9cc
>  >>  [3] glossary:
>  >>  https://translate.fedoraproject.org/zen/guix/glossary/fr/
>  >>  [4] Wikipedia:
>  >>  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_in_computing#French
>  >>
>

Re: revert Guix French translation: bootable ?

[pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)]

Le 07/11/2024 07:09, Julien Lepiller <julien@lepiller.eu> a écrit :
>  « chargeur d'amorçage » is used consistently across many projects. It's even the title of the wikipedia page

Léane GRASSER <leane.grasser@proton.me> writes:
> Also note that the source given for "chargeur d'amorçage" is the OQLF and links to the "programme d'amorçage" page. The OQLF is also known to push French terminology even if it's not popular.

Because the GRUB translation at [1] uses « chargeur d'amorçage »,
I will probably revert your change, Léane.

Do you agree that amorçage will be understood?

I’m more of the opinion that translated manuals should be translated,
but I do agree that (for German) some translated terms never caught on
and some words (German example: Klapprechner) really will not be
understood.

Is this a question of what language register we want the manual to have?
It should be the quality of books, in my opinion.

Regards,
Florian

[1] https://translationproject.org/team/fr.html

Re: revert Guix French translation: bootable ?

[Noé Lopez via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.]

Hi,

In my opinion, it is better to use « chargeur d’amorçage » as it is
widely understood (from my point of view), even if it is used less.

The fact that it is more popular and widely used should not stop us from
using it, it’s okay to use more advanced French in written works: you
don’t see authors use oral expressions because it is easier to
undersand, the quality of their French has value.

That said, it is mostly my opinion and its fine for me to use
« bootloader » as long as it is added to the glossary :)

On a larger scale, I would rather use all the french words if they
exist, as this is a translation after all and users may not speak
english at all (theoretically).

+1 for « chargeur d’amorçage »,
Noé

Re: revert Guix French translation: bootable ?

[Léane GRASSER via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.]

I do not believe this is about the language register as I believe "bootloader" could be considered a technical term, but rather whether we want to favor French and consistency with GRUB over ease of understanding.

GRUB is translated by Traduc.org and their GNOME translation team uses "chargeur, lanceur": https://glossaire.traduc.org/index.php?s=boot+loader

There's also a second "chargeur de démarrage" entry, originating from Sun's glossary, and a third "chargeur d'amorçage": https://glossaire.traduc.org/index.php?s=bootloader

Microsoft has been using "programme de démarrage système": https://msit.powerbi.com/view?r=eyJrIjoiODJmYjU4Y2YtM2M0ZC00YzYxLWE1YTktNzFjYmYxNTAxNjQ0IiwidCI6IjcyZjk4OGJmLTg2ZjEtNDFhZi05MWFiLTJkN2NkMDExZGI0NyIsImMiOjV9

Long story short—it's all over the place and there is no consensus after more than 20 years. "bootloader" is a simple term that should be understood at a glance by most, especially by the tech-savvy. Not so sure about its many translations.

Léane

Le jeudi 7 novembre 2024 à 11:50 AM, pelzflorian (Florian Pelz) <pelzflorian@pelzflorian.de> a écrit :

> Le 07/11/2024 07:09, Julien Lepiller julien@lepiller.eu a écrit :
> 
> > « chargeur d'amorçage » is used consistently across many projects. It's even the title of the wikipedia page
> 
> 
> Léane GRASSER leane.grasser@proton.me writes:
> 
> > Also note that the source given for "chargeur d'amorçage" is the OQLF and links to the "programme d'amorçage" page. The OQLF is also known to push French terminology even if it's not popular.
> 
> 
> Because the GRUB translation at [1] uses « chargeur d'amorçage »,
> I will probably revert your change, Léane.
> 
> Do you agree that amorçage will be understood?
> 
> I’m more of the opinion that translated manuals should be translated,
> but I do agree that (for German) some translated terms never caught on
> and some words (German example: Klapprechner) really will not be
> understood.
> 
> Is this a question of what language register we want the manual to have?
> It should be the quality of books, in my opinion.
> 
> Regards,
> Florian
> 
> [1] https://translationproject.org/team/fr.html

Re: revert Guix French translation: bootable ?

[pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)]

Thank you to Léane for adding both “boot loader” and “bootloader” to the
glossary.

Noé claims amorçage is widely understood.  GNU GRUB is the most
important bootloader to us and its terminology matters.

Practically important is that users searching the manual for any of
« chargeur d'amorçage », « chargeur de démarrage », « bootloader »
find the manual sections.  In my opinion, this is one more reason for
chargeur d'amorçage, because démarrer has many meanings.

Bootloader is mentioned anyway as the name of the bootloader field and
variables.

Searching « chargeur » then leads to the right places for amorçage and
démarrage.

Searching the complete term « chargeur de démarrage » occurs in one
section concerned primarily with Btrfs along with amorçage.
The term Démarrage is currently used sometimes in the concept index
instead of amorçage.

I will revert and then replace all these démarrage uses with amorçage.

Regards,
Florian

Re: revert Guix French translation: bootable ?

[pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)]

"pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)" <pelzflorian@pelzflorian.de> writes:
> I will revert and then replace all these démarrage uses with amorçage.

I have reverted except for « le flag 'boot' » in the Guix System installer,
which I guess really is more understandable than « drapeau d'amorçage »
(considering that the word drapeau is not part of the GRUB translation).
Thanks to Léane for this change and also for improving the word order.

Regards,
Florian

Re: revert Guix French translation: bootable ?

[Ludovic Courtès]

Noé Lopez via "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution."
<guix-devel@gnu.org> skribis:

> On a larger scale, I would rather use all the french words if they
> exist, as this is a translation after all and users may not speak
> english at all (theoretically).

+1 :-)