From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp11.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms9.migadu.com with LMTPS id cOJdGO3WTGQYNQAASxT56A (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 29 Apr 2023 10:35:57 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp11.migadu.com with LMTPS id wHZRGO3WTGQqhwAA9RJhRA (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 29 Apr 2023 10:35:57 +0200 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E74E713A21 for ; Sat, 29 Apr 2023 10:35:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1psg3H-0007FQ-JG; Sat, 29 Apr 2023 04:35:31 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1psg3F-0007FI-Cv for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 29 Apr 2023 04:35:29 -0400 Received: from mira.cbaines.net ([212.71.252.8]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1psg3D-0003xW-7u for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 29 Apr 2023 04:35:29 -0400 Received: from localhost (unknown [78.133.15.71]) by mira.cbaines.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C4A1217A4C; Sat, 29 Apr 2023 09:35:25 +0100 (BST) Received: from felis (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id f04b64ae; Sat, 29 Apr 2023 08:35:24 +0000 (UTC) References: <87a5ytw6nd.fsf@kaka.sjd.se> User-agent: mu4e 1.8.13; emacs 28.2 From: Christopher Baines To: Simon Josefsson Cc: guix-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: Build dependency inflation (was: Re: Core-updates merge) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2023 10:32:47 +0200 In-reply-to: <87a5ytw6nd.fsf@kaka.sjd.se> Message-ID: <87ildfw0fp.fsf@cbaines.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.71.252.8; envelope-from=mail@cbaines.net; helo=mira.cbaines.net X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1682757357; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=LlaxfjFHtIe7xNkByoFPXJk8qEVie8oFhTq+WUIXaKKmNpPfvjSJRbcEO0y1nMLmVda1PN t0w91kKHGb6eDFv0Ry9380LDEnhc2Ir8Qd2vqze2XbB4mtfZbyw9LddrjZ0MkfqiA5tYCg 23ML796uszodqbR8+m9mzLhi/PGKh2ghL9CYmPkmC7LS10fEXvFkYCTLGCuZzd465LHaS7 KwsfM9tL3udC+tiC44IYzr/FGolJX6RH8GFWE8fr22+aZYIhg9vPrAdmGvopPk0WqfPg9e qXK1asUkv1bZnIIE2Hdxdggn6pkZmdKzKz7rgg3FkX3K763OUZSe1ja1QaWQ0g== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1682757357; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post; bh=PCUC5nORQeqFbl8SBgmRplqcR+qMpF7HLH3hVPW38F4=; b=NWVutmsw0r4xhY4inZY+kHGzn05thqd4cl63QDZsgbtH/1OJp/xOWSaH43hlomRS6j4hzd Llffrvgc3K8ZuAFHNdn92PB8DnaHSK9aVVPiIZt8x8JcgiI+1rdfAVYqqZl5BMr42bWF+O Gy+7XZJ3Z1CCJF7j5Wp91bbwm+NyoV/qv6Efp8EmNHJcNbPbW1RUcSgQCObu/3b7CGOXZP hwT+44ri9jQTPOCTK9FQIV93BcwY1+Jjnu4h51cATY79k8Wt/OMWbAVbAQK2FE75Wtm5+i HinqN75S4XAwlc4NLgIUDdw/0pZ8K2tnwVPfKeQ3Abk/qtpL1DkyUL1oKBKkmQ== X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -5.10 X-Spam-Score: -5.10 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: E74E713A21 X-TUID: pg7XuTdH/sDf --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Simon Josefsson via "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." writes: > [[PGP Signed Part:Undecided]] > Andreas Enge writes: > >> - Too much in Guix depends on too much else, which makes building things >> needlessly entangled; in particular time zone data should not be referred >> to by packages, but be loaded at runtime (Leo Famulari). > > This is an important open problem -- is there any way to attack this > problem in a systematic way? I guess it is hard to understand which > packages ends up depending on what since it is a large graph with long > cycles, and also to understand which build depencies are essential and > which are superficial, and thus consequently challenging to know where > to start working to reduce build dependencies? > > I wonder if it is possible to graph all the build dependencies, and do > something like a monte-carlo what-if simulation: randomly pick one > build-dependency from the entire build-dependency graph and remove it, > and recompute the graph. If the difference between these two graphs > leads to a significantly lower total build computational cost than > before, we may be on to something. My theory is that "true" build > dependencies will show up in so many places that removing just one > instance of it will not affect total build time. But "needless" build > dependencies may occur just once or few times, and this approach would > catch low-hanging fruit to work on. Maybe the simulation needs to be > done on more than just removing one build-dependency, it could play > what-if games removing two build-dependencies etc, or three random > build-dependencies, and so on. Maybe my idea is flawed, and this will > only lead to a list of build-dependencies that are impossible to get rid > off anyway. > > Is there some other method to understand what build dependencies would > be important to remove, to speed up total rebuild time? > > Maybe we could analyze how much of a particular build-dependency > actually is used by a particular build? By looking into file-access > patterns etc. This is something I'd like to see incorporated in to qa.guix.gnu.org for patch (and branch) review. While one off analysis is good, I think it's most important to be able to look at changes and see how they change the situation. --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQKlBAEBCgCPFiEEPonu50WOcg2XVOCyXiijOwuE9XcFAmRM1spfFIAAAAAALgAo aXNzdWVyLWZwckBub3RhdGlvbnMub3BlbnBncC5maWZ0aGhvcnNlbWFuLm5ldDNF ODlFRUU3NDU4RTcyMEQ5NzU0RTBCMjVFMjhBMzNCMEI4NEY1NzcRHG1haWxAY2Jh aW5lcy5uZXQACgkQXiijOwuE9XdeCA//Y7MeaArO7P8eam+kjdLGOMebf83fKKZ0 uQLJ7SslgSeL6xxBpWJ5BmmlLVLO6TK2NDsuyfkNq9FS5CFBISIxgvqpq5DZl1Ih IsrDCJ9Pe5offOCmls5Pi+uM8WmsYsbTVhzUZzsF6G4vx0oNRaIxFt648C+raYZx 6YV3DZ21Radp7tG8tptO3E+bE0YwsxOG9jFWLpCYsHDJAGx82B7UXKyLSrXw0CLp NT/tn5OMGdYTAwZMMxARA1tEYzCLaFTjQr1S1PEeIwLLTsSk9qCeK34w6ckP48XF TF6Q+T22u/M1P9U06zsPZGrPXryOGQANwjQGS2c1+iUOnp/BBTab45Gxp8KLo7h9 5C66zyypHYMIFV90OfcVsUnQ+COxulbvyfxZ0NGQYtywIEbhl2Ls7wORhNDpLTn3 9efzmxCtmOO8+Ie3FyAgeYokwdPOOAgBdJ0VXuevYZURMyv/Lzy0YYoSR0EqelnS QXpXI8DB1Mdsn8QIcWojfKOe6sVaKrt1hQjXPVU5Imv62gNLK6NZAuN5/9p6uK6E KeEuCaZFQa+AGVRngWy+ijQ6E34eo/Ku4qHhAGgeQfacGHzVnAM4AcaJ6JCtkjxn XSD5a9jn6F7LJ/WscP05MGeR35zgaqZJzfNAJec48MNlDvW2/dlJpedEItW2HtIx Y1zdhNkAoSk= =mgbu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--