From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp1 ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms11 with LMTPS id qIgeLkjOWGCwcwAA0tVLHw (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2021 17:05:12 +0000 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp1 with LMTPS id UM/8KUjOWGAQOgAAbx9fmQ (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2021 17:05:12 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 278E91EB6F for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2021 18:05:12 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1]:37776 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lONzL-00068A-3M for larch@yhetil.org; Mon, 22 Mar 2021 13:05:11 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:34950) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lONx8-0004eH-Ki for guix-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 22 Mar 2021 13:02:54 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:34622) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lONx7-0001e9-0u; Mon, 22 Mar 2021 13:02:54 -0400 Received: from [2a01:e0a:1d:7270:af76:b9b:ca24:c465] (port=43066 helo=ribbon) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1lONx0-0003cg-Oi; Mon, 22 Mar 2021 13:02:52 -0400 From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= To: raid5atemyhomework Subject: Re: A Critique of Shepherd Design References: <87a6qx7of5.fsf@gnu.org> X-URL: http://www.fdn.fr/~lcourtes/ X-Revolutionary-Date: 2 Germinal an 229 de la =?utf-8?Q?R=C3=A9volution?= X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x090B11993D9AEBB5 X-PGP-Key: http://www.fdn.fr/~lcourtes/ludovic.asc X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3CE4 6455 8A84 FDC6 9DB4 0CFB 090B 1199 3D9A EBB5 X-OS: x86_64-pc-linux-gnu Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 18:02:44 +0100 In-Reply-To: (raid5atemyhomework@protonmail.com's message of "Sun, 21 Mar 2021 00:22:09 +0000") Message-ID: <87h7l3w28b.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: "guix-devel@gnu.org" Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1616432712; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post; bh=QgCXtRy+ShAO8+OYCX/yGwO8AYXaYK1Sn/IKWtCJkIY=; b=rAcJu46iKMVOvmPFvjKdQ7wBKaRI4T5EYtHNdfPSVQh7vLrbkSw1Y2hg+EbRJ5s4ugJE8U Qls/As+frTnS5wG6E8Rf0kbzqWkuoHg/ozpiAKG9K6DXdjOWKaQqIPQ57jzScdodZmbOe3 aCoSs7g1lquOhRwrQP90+E0aS4iYzJww0ref0JXJMxJlOh5D0HY4Rq2qvxsfzFqxrS71fA UGUB0yVvmsKGX6QdQZs95KKBDFfDe9GMRxSXZPfAMFW0oBBDikpLMJ21Loc00KUXsHPTtc cqKxN4nrYpTusDg1LDyJbBPUS/fXVC1wU3ker4hfqG5Va9lfzMjgxTATdj0XYQ== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1616432712; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=HmeXg6X7sQIz8IIdagW/6trnBD4rfQzvUFkSihQuuQt0N+REEHXc5elVIX4UhCGnr2KXEp sGAeDQmaFa3+vYKmVC3sKvh3oceHM4aaUb7sZuIn/nMZKRHPNOBDOyXWYqgc3PEv0563VT MZn1NgmQoGzvrruhkWJpFRz9/aHgQTQBm1sUCt1oE0AeRWtaOCCU24rKm+Joi2J3g05qhT h3VBiHuYfdErbrvNP8DNAtZIpn6wVSgsiZCluFw4+5cmIbfZ5BNKFmRb2eEGpA3j1TbNDQ YDVgc20keFn3iQB1f5trovCIZelmFrvrQYHoaGRMhqMvZb0zwCoCgkUEKrdh1A== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gnu.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -2.92 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gnu.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 278E91EB6F X-Spam-Score: -2.92 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: nzLHBOCXXTbx Hi, raid5atemyhomework skribis: > I'm not sure you can afford to keep it simple. It has limitations but it does the job=E2=80=94just like many other init sy= stems did the job before the advent of systemd. > Consider: https://issues.guix.gnu.org/47253 > > In that issue, the `networking` provision comes up potentially *before* t= he network is, in fact, up. This means that other daemons that require `ne= tworking` could potentially be started before the network connection is up. The =E2=80=98networking=E2=80=99 service is just here to say that some netw= ork interface is up or will be up. It=E2=80=99s admittedly vague and weak, but it=E2=80= =99s enough for most daemons; they just need to be able to bind and listen to some port. > One example of such a daemon is `transmission-daemon`. This daemon will = bind itself to port 9091 so you can control it. Unfortunately, if it gets = started while network is down, it will be unable to bind to 9091 (so you ca= n't control it) but still keep running. On my system that means that on re= boot I have to manually `sudo herd restart trannsmission-daemon`. Could you report a bug for this one? I don=E2=80=99t see why it=E2=80=99d = fail to bind. > In another example, I have a custom daemon that I have set up to use > the Tor proxy over 127.0.0.1:9050. It requires both `networking` and > `tor`. When it starts after `networking` comes up but before the > actual network does, it dies because it can't access the proxy at > 127.0.0.1:9050 (apparently NetworkManager handles loopback as well). Loopback is handled by the =E2=80=98loopback=E2=80=99 shepherd service, whi= ch is provided via =E2=80=98%base-services=E2=80=99. Perhaps you just need to ha= ve your service depend on it? > Switching to a concurrent design for Shepherd --- *any* concurrent design= --- is probably best done sooner rather than later, because it risks stron= gly affecting customized `configuration.scm`s like mine that have almost a = half dozen custom Shepherd daemons. I suspect the main issue here is undeclared dependencies of some of the Shepherd services you mention. I like the =E2=80=9Csooner rather than later=E2=80=9D bit, though: it sound= s like you=E2=80=99re about to send patches or announce some sponsorship program?=E2=80=A6 :-) Thanks, Ludo=E2=80=99.