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[172.221.246.205]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n4sm3600432ili.72.2021.10.29.07.54.43 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 29 Oct 2021 07:54:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Katherine Cox-Buday To: Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s?= Subject: Re: Opining on "modern" development practices (was Re: Merging the =?utf-8?B?4oCcYmluYXJ54oCd?= NPM importer?) References: <87mto8zpll.fsf@airmail.cc> <87zgs3829p.fsf@gnu.org> <87fsttuys3.fsf@dustycloud.org> <877deo473m.fsf@gmail.com> <87a6jeayuf.fsf@ngyro.com> <871r4opfbf.fsf@gmail.com> <87mtnbpv1z.fsf@gnu.org> <87mtnbfyhs.fsf_-_@gmail.com> <87lf2mxj4a.fsf@gnu.org> <87lf2d9orw.fsf@gmail.com> <87y26c104t.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 09:54:42 -0500 In-Reply-To: <87y26c104t.fsf@gnu.org> ("Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s=22'?= =?utf-8?Q?s?= message of "Fri, 29 Oct 2021 14:33:22 +0200") Message-ID: <87h7czankd.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2b; envelope-from=cox.katherine.e@gmail.com; helo=mail-io1-xd2b.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: guix-devel@gnu.org Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1635519359; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=zaZogGIl3/K0LU+P0ObWTum5Naz5h+BZgjykkR6eUqY=; b=F4DwTK/b4k9aNwNMafpoGKbJv8iTwSEJtxceglrMTgwg3shjAUNCfmUWNHNTI+6VrJlegd fkn3F6k1xsiDR49QxV5cQ/qNXNI+A4naeT9F4IrSRjyije9ES5V6mcflfWi5miiER09vfl 7PvE56PS51jQoDI7PxscRsl61UT+dImhswc/m2wa1YAcFmKwsFk1pAzhv92kNf3NuUIX72 XP5UHEuyKhemZF/k/cyihwZvK90Mf2P30kxJSXm3fFYiAUEm8zDOWzHEyANI4glcMvsbL5 hc3aSB5RZvPDla5MN2+dk2syZgpj8HkhQuPvmnENX3Iix6Zx4LwV6+TdEcoL0g== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1635519359; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=Oc1mPlF5ctMFx9JR4F1NuwDdnidsXN0V8Xg8jW3OfhJqInnf8/rPg7JLb8LperqRxKVvd0 gwbWOCDGKbJZirkFowI6mDUVTg7J0DDVZKHWf57BvZ4xZfMrSo+rRi2JfbriVIvIHJkZz2 N/Pf9epOuz0TFr2QCPPX0fPqCAcMUeQy/JMNNc3EsEMnMF2cvZwiPgNwz5WbLKsGjug9D0 pprGqoI3P78bk6o2S+afdcFfI5bD3ropORHr2/XQQZwg4zXJRRMO1MTi5hkK+kWDsmcqhH HpQtRp578v9xX4yYW/ekDeCCTGulPh36b2qSf13kqxgneGFEJeX74YSk74qXuQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b="iiNV/qyo"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -3.12 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b="iiNV/qyo"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 51B022D1FA X-Spam-Score: -3.12 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: jLTiTgrSR/LO Ludovic Court=C3=A8s writes: > Nope! You=E2=80=99ve probably noticed that the Hurd isn=E2=80=99t known = as a lively and > successful project, and then there are things like the Critique=C2=B9 or = work > on porting the Hurd to the L4 microkernel which, while showing the > =E2=80=9Cright=E2=80=9D direction research-wise, have also had IMO the ef= fect of > suggesting that it=E2=80=99s never going to be good enough. > > I think a project needs to be aware of its shortcomings, but it also > needs achievable milestones, and it needs to refrain from elitism. > > =C2=B9 http://walfield.org/papers/200707-walfield-critique-of-the-GNU-Hur= d.pdf Yes, I'm generally aware of the challenges the Hurd (and other micro kernel= s) have had taking off. I'm not clear on whether this is because monolithic= kernels are intrinsically better (is this yet another example of worse is = better?), or because of an organizational expression of worse is better. I happened to be watching John Carmack speak last night. I haven't watched = many of his talks, but he seems like a consummate pragmatist. I've always a= dmired people like this because it's so opposite of my own idealistic tende= ncies. One thing he said in particular seems relevant: https://youtu.be/BnSUk0je6oo?t=3D883 "The metaverse is a honeypot trap for astronaut architects." I.e. he was arguing against trying to build (read: architect) the metaverse= because it's a great way to either not get anything useful done, or to get= the wrong thing done. I guess I've been circling around this philosophy for awhile, but I think I= 'm going to let it cross over into being my working theory of how to build = useful software (among other things in life): worse is better, and collect = as many forcing factors as you can, as early as you can. I wonder how I can= apply this to Guix. > See . Thank you for the link! --=20 Katherine