From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp10.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id CNneNd4jGGIELAEAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 01:33:34 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp10.migadu.com with LMTPS id WMquLt4jGGKvJwEAG6o9tA (envelope-from ) for ; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 01:33:34 +0100 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4504B960B for ; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 01:33:34 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1]:60100 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nNOY9-0005kF-7F for larch@yhetil.org; Thu, 24 Feb 2022 19:33:33 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:46096) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nNOXo-0005jp-2C for guix-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 24 Feb 2022 19:33:12 -0500 Received: from dustycloud.org ([50.116.34.160]:40434) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nNOXk-0003xz-Ag for guix-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 24 Feb 2022 19:33:10 -0500 Received: from chicory (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dustycloud.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 07BE526617; Thu, 24 Feb 2022 19:33:05 -0500 (EST) References: <2067ba1e606855eace261fd0b0ae9721b369bbd5.camel@telenet.be> <70fb056bcfa1570525b9c7153de883506c51d1ce.camel@platen-software.de> <5558617e-895b-4fd0-02c4-775a94cab648@becze.org> <42f2d7aa-6c6b-370b-0536-9b69d54c1b6f@crazy-compilers.com> User-agent: mu4e 1.6.10; emacs 27.2 From: Christine Lemmer-Webber To: Martin Becze Subject: Re: Excessively energy-consuming software considered malware? Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 19:27:37 -0500 In-reply-to: Message-ID: <87h78n945c.fsf@dustycloud.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=50.116.34.160; envelope-from=cwebber@dustycloud.org; helo=dustycloud.org X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: guix-devel@gnu.org Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1645749214; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post; bh=irfr5FXVDiecl6oS6S95CsP29MlM+YE4rpZry5fIrMI=; b=YOUi3ch9mzfACSX6MY94jBeyg+laIFK004HxEU8LE/011mDu5gtLYYAIJHlEpef0d6ndey Pu45LpQShsuLl5Lld+5PW02rulm2o6By7I+NqudhhmzXKPJgTP1iGMIjsibweD9RIyOBKv qfO5oUeN66Jmb+sdhf74rerztdIPxQGZJ0BfdnEvZFWXGH5X8OqIygymqJWOCqxLiXZqNq OApJfCPV4bStXm96MAx4PQipWOTg51IbzaL7Y1WNZJp64F+zBghHRIN/XuTJVhNOLvwJZb GI8r0uQCrhBWA9uYiGXfq+c1zM7G/p0iQwym6oE38VH2w3ndFqoKauuSnFloSQ== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1645749214; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=n+pMZ/JmBtbBO/d6tplWyLsy9X74EGauldINhdMLd8ZOPZATc+Rlg2mN4UIp9SLFAhYRig nNh+JxQkZVXjnMSLw0+TZHEXTxgoI6arJp12KPxOmEUi9+gp8X6G2RhXLJCrPF3B3iYNrB eFKsqxNZ7wGtWQp2MewotbM7AAoJ02el+vnoEwMCOmRl4ti+Qh73YShydSVs5AqpBLlKNA hy4h72qjO21sYYbwcyuoei0uwvCyKBN9MSr+aHFe53sKLP6VhcMyoT+NzdTKBHttDQShV1 tN4AAQGR/TXXKz/kJAQ+WYnx9Ix1L7Y0u5IWAU+3kWScHxbad1YNZj/3wGY5fg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -2.13 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 4504B960B X-Spam-Score: -2.13 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: 6//md4HvpeoD I am all for these conversations; they are good to have as a society, to examine our social foundations in earnest dialogue. But I think they've approached a point on here where they're no longer about Guix development, in particular, so probably should be moved off-list. Martin Becze writes: > [[PGP Signed Part:Undecided]] > My point to here is not to argue a "libertarian" viewpoint (I'm not > one), but to argue that there or other consideration to mining crypto=20 > and that it is outside the realm of the free software movement from > which Guix's package inclusion policy is derived. You or I might not=20 > like or agree with the over viewpoints but that should be fine with in > the context of free software and operating systems. This is also=20 > foundational to liberalism and having a functional government in the > first place. > >> Who is going to pay and provide all of this > I personal think it would be wonderful if governments focused on > providing those things and mechanism such as the harbinger tax could > be great and removing control of the monetary supply from the state > would greatly reduce its ability to fund military expenditures. For > reference David graeber's Debt: The First 5000 Years is an interesting > narrative of how money's evolution was impart driven by the waging of > mass war. > > On 2/24/22 10:23, Hartmut Goebel wrote: > >> CW: politics below >> >> Am 20.02.22 um 21:39 schrieb Martin Becze: >>> But undermining the governments ability to raise tax and therefor >>> to wage war or not expending energy to prevent government theft is >>> the =E2=80=98controversial morality=E2=80=99 that I am sure can be agre= ed to death >>> and which probably doesn't belong on this list.=20 >> >> Undermining the governments ability to raise tax also means >> undermining the ability to build schools, kindergartens, public=20 >> libraries, public transport, streets, etc. Who is going to pay and >> provide all of this, If there is no democratically controlled(*)=20 >> government? >> >> You might argument that this will then be paid be wealthy people - >> but the country will depend solely on their will and want. And these=20 >> wealthy people are not controlled at all. And these people might >> wage war, too. We already had such a system in the medieval >> time. It:s called feudalism. >> >> So nothing is won by undermining the government. >> >> (*) Democratic control still needs a lot of improvement. Esp. in the >> USA where =E2=80=9Ethe winner takes it all=E2=80=9C results in a two-par= ty system,=20 >> which does not represent the people. But this is another issue. >> >> > > [2. OpenPGP public key --- application/pgp-keys; OpenPGP_0xB97E95F9DED575= 5D.asc]... > > [[End of PGP Signed Part]]