From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp10.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id oSENORh1nmLqkwAAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 06 Jun 2022 23:43:53 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp10.migadu.com with LMTPS id aFz/Nhh1nmKyTwEAG6o9tA (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 06 Jun 2022 23:43:52 +0200 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A2DC83E1A7 for ; Mon, 6 Jun 2022 23:43:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:44222 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nyKVr-00026t-QP for larch@yhetil.org; Mon, 06 Jun 2022 17:43:51 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:49608) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nyKVh-00026e-S4 for guix-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 06 Jun 2022 17:43:41 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:47950) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nyKVe-0007rT-Ty; Mon, 06 Jun 2022 17:43:38 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:Date:References:Subject:To: From; bh=zazjbfCwOkfLMFnokSWG5Snq7vZiAXfOhxlG9rZM9rI=; b=c170wIWRP/q33qEhfc6v mQrGGmnMAHy8YaaUaGBCA7oRxQkVAtRzBrhUu4bRpKwXAEdrj7/ka++dHxdw5MtvPhzq71gX+cPhA gOMFuEf9vmDn03sm79KhtIa3xaeoCbPFr6ApOlIFfo6we2hAzpmCddUq2TeNh0YRl7IgBs52lInuf Y7ACHQ8uUm0r2DJtYOLvQH3jIXVZCJrSeGhdKPMPlqB2/E4ZpbvtcbYzB84a3sn6yxIsPa9erQPC1 tcnw3aDVXaOQj8iub30YKE8wEL5cvej94FlnPzHbJXGjuxFHnR2+HLBs3GG+JGK1Ba6P9GdDWHKfo FOyob/Edy4ZiBA==; Received: from 91-160-117-201.subs.proxad.net ([91.160.117.201]:63489 helo=ribbon) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nyKVe-0007DA-HM; Mon, 06 Jun 2022 17:43:38 -0400 From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= To: Arun Isaac Cc: Guix Devel , GNU Guix maintainers Subject: Re: On commit access, patch review, and remaining healthy References: <87ee07m77w.fsf@gnu.org> <877d5um1oe.fsf@systemreboot.net> X-URL: http://www.fdn.fr/~lcourtes/ X-Revolutionary-Date: Octidi 18 Prairial an 230 de la =?utf-8?Q?R=C3=A9vol?= =?utf-8?Q?ution=2C?= jour du Pavot X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x090B11993D9AEBB5 X-PGP-Key: http://www.fdn.fr/~lcourtes/ludovic.asc X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3CE4 6455 8A84 FDC6 9DB4 0CFB 090B 1199 3D9A EBB5 X-OS: x86_64-pc-linux-gnu Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2022 23:43:36 +0200 In-Reply-To: <877d5um1oe.fsf@systemreboot.net> (Arun Isaac's message of "Mon, 06 Jun 2022 17:41:45 +0530") Message-ID: <87fskha2nr.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-To: larch@yhetil.org X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1654551832; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=zazjbfCwOkfLMFnokSWG5Snq7vZiAXfOhxlG9rZM9rI=; b=hVrwGBw9ErAuS+hb8iAmIa0a9kRyVkJK/LIsLrFn9AGN3171XpgHjLNbcjLsjiCuraZ+gY QYlB8I5CLzfwwQUezrjUh2rdcKYXDywVQYU5/p7RaL2KPbmVmR8/pQ4chS9dlWGBN/EOCI cxxTklMPoqfsO2PQGlWz8QDk+nXNqvtIzT2xx2YFFE1wuPLeduvSzF6/5tYYa8kcw0VhA5 Ogf/Img/muxaxfA1dSOp8p7ZW8WoUdIUGBq/TwU3hvvLhEDDJPwwaxwoStz1J27ndfGLf1 S5m69NOrXJNmAC0xai9vK0plYC34EulD1G46ZwdCgyosHBatHW/HsvV7/WICpQ== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1654551832; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=XvBrIkUDJ5eaW+FjuAdM21tPZZ4aek1wcELlwi2Rj5Frib/v+nsDiZCihZsV8zkA2R3fM+ KKa+94LnP2C+axdgPbhUvKkmAG9YwClr9VeXgPv/r16uUPy/cnz3CfozFh2cXJabADXQ6C s9vMIDy1khjFduWc3AQl5oZ7kplbi94KRWvo1+kiRHhhMhq5pheRyCpXIKp42XTTXfnVxu 2YowF5w51pmMxaTcZEOX1Q9r+jYzxZ2zzPJoWEuiUwAfdapylR4CvkIFuoxp3zGlDQGrsN PTmay0vioOFNS3GnAs8IPw7ug9lmDpQLZepEEabQM+CHSk62JdRbSwrLONeLTA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gnu.org header.s=fencepost-gnu-org header.b=c170wIWR; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gnu.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -7.31 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gnu.org header.s=fencepost-gnu-org header.b=c170wIWR; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gnu.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: A2DC83E1A7 X-Spam-Score: -7.31 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: yZfhtBwSgui6 Hi Arun, Arun Isaac skribis: > Tooling aside, at least for me, I think there is an important emotional > and psychological aspect to patch review. Maybe others share it too. So, > I'll speak up. Thanks a lot for speaking up, your feedback is invaluable. I did consider that the whole process could be intimidated; that even an experienced contributor like you finds it intimidating is a red flag to me. > Sometimes, I don't review and commit patches because I feel like I am > not qualified to review them, and am afraid of pushing a "bad > commit". Guix has very high coding standards (which I very much > appreciate, BTW), but that means that there is a high cost of failure > and a pressure to live up to that high standard. This means that even if > I'm 99% sure of a commit, I tend to leave it to others because of that > nagging 1% doubt I have about some trivial aspect of the patch. The 1% > doubt could even be about really trivial things like indentation or the > name of a variable. In other words, perfectionism causes paralysis. OK, understood. I can think of two ways to reassure committers: 1. By having clear reviewer check lists (you=E2=80=99d do that if you tic= k all the boxes, you=E2=80=99re fine); 2. By improving automation=E2=80=94nothing new here: if there was a tick = that says =E2=80=9Capplies without merge conflicts=E2=80=9D and another one= that read =E2=80=9Cbuilds fine=E2=80=9D, anyone could lightheartedly hit the =E2= =80=9Cmerge=E2=80=9D button. #2 is going to take time I=E2=80=99m afraid, but at least #1 is actionable (=E2=80=98guix lint=E2=80=99 should help, too). WDYT? Are there other possibilities that come to mind? > This excessive self-doubt is created by feeling like one doesn't > "belong" in the elite community of Guix hackers. This problem may be > alleviated somewhat by having more frequent (say, once in 3=E2=80=934 mon= ths) > meetups and encouraging participation by shy people like myself. Having > human non-technical relationships with other members of the Guix > community can also go a long way. The WhereIsEveryone meetups already > help greatly. Perhaps Ricardo's idea of guix-mentors is another > direction worth pursuing. That=E2=80=99s a more subjective aspect, but a crucial one. That perceptio= n of an elite hacker community and the corresponding impostor syndrome are problematic. We long-time contributors should meditate that. And yes, we should take advantage of the WhereIsEveryone meetups and guix-mentors to get to know each other, to help each other, and to demystify the whole thing. > If this same thread had come up a year or two ago, I would most likely > have remained silent. The only reason I feel alright talking today is > because recently I have got to know more members of the community > "face-to-face" (through online meetings), and feel more comfortable > opening up. I generally prefer text-only communication like email, but > sometimes, putting a human face on people and having a casual > conversation about nothing in particular, goes a long long way. Agreed. Thank you for sharing how you feel about the process, it=E2=80=99s much appreciated. Ludo=E2=80=99.