Etymology of derivation

Etymology of derivation

[Arun Isaac]

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Hi Guix,

I am translating Guix to the Tamil language. Tamil doesn't yet have a
very standardized technical vocabulary, and I mostly coin terms on my
own. Most often, I construct calques of existing English words, and it
sounds alright. But, I'm having trouble with the word "derivation" (as
in Guix's low-level build actions). I haven't seen the word "derivation"
used anywhere outside of Guix. Why is a "low-level build action" called
a "derivation"? If someone could clarify the etymology, it might really
help with good translation.

Thanks!

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Re: Etymology of derivation

[Vagrant Cascadian]

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On 2020-11-02, Arun Isaac wrote:
> I am translating Guix to the Tamil language. Tamil doesn't yet have a
> very standardized technical vocabulary, and I mostly coin terms on my
> own. Most often, I construct calques of existing English words, and it
> sounds alright. But, I'm having trouble with the word "derivation" (as
> in Guix's low-level build actions). I haven't seen the word "derivation"
> used anywhere outside of Guix. Why is a "low-level build action" called
> a "derivation"? If someone could clarify the etymology, it might really
> help with good translation.

From WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006) [wn]:

  derivation
      n 1: the source or origin from which something derives (i.e.
           comes or issues); "he prefers shoes of Italian derivation";
           "music of Turkish derivation"
...
      8: the act of deriving something or obtaining something from a
         source or origin

Seems like a some subtle variation of definitions 1 and 8, according to
wordnet. Closer to 8, really, so I'd say ...

The guix derivations are the result of processing or using (the act)
inputs (sources and origins) to produce an output (the derivation
itself).


I would guess the original Nix publication also explains the use of this
term?

  https://web.archive.org/web/20190421081837/https://nixos.org/~eelco/pubs/iscsd-scm11-final.pdf
  https://web.archive.org/web/20190609111633/https://nixos.org/~eelco/pubs/phd-thesis.pdf


live well,
  vagrant

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Re: Etymology of derivation

[Taylan Kammer]

On 01.11.2020 20:27, Arun Isaac wrote:
> 
> Hi Guix,
> 
> I am translating Guix to the Tamil language. Tamil doesn't yet have a
> very standardized technical vocabulary, and I mostly coin terms on my
> own. Most often, I construct calques of existing English words, and it
> sounds alright. But, I'm having trouble with the word "derivation" (as
> in Guix's low-level build actions). I haven't seen the word "derivation"
> used anywhere outside of Guix. Why is a "low-level build action" called
> a "derivation"? If someone could clarify the etymology, it might really
> help with good translation.
> 
> Thanks!
> 

In Turkish, taking the easy way, we sometimes just bastardize an English 
word, for example in this case we might say "derivasyon."  (Other such 
examples: "depresyon" for depression, "enflasyon" for inflation, etc.) 
Can such a thing be done in Tamil?


Alternatively, it might be useful to check what terminology is used in 
Tamil for mathematical derivation / derivatives, as in calculus.


By the way, using Google Translate on various English, German and 
Turkish words which all stand for "derivation" (namely "derivation", 
"derivative", "Ableitung", "türev" and "türetme") have all resulted in:

வழித்தோன்றல்

Although translating it back leads to words like "descendants" and 
"grandchildren."


- Taylan

Re: Etymology of derivation

[Aniket Patil]

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Hi Arun,
I have been student of Sanskrit, but I am not master of Sanskrit. I would
like to say that we can derive words in Indian languages easily. If we
don’t have such words then Indian languages have something called dhatu
(root). व्युत्पन्न “Vyutpanna” is a marathi word for derivation. Try to
find similar or make on your own. I don’t have familiarity with Tamil but I
would suggest you to do so.

Regards,
Aniket

On Mon, 2 Nov 2020 at 10:38 AM, Taylan Kammer <taylan.kammer@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On 01.11.2020 20:27, Arun Isaac wrote:
> >
> > Hi Guix,
> >
> > I am translating Guix to the Tamil language. Tamil doesn't yet have a
> > very standardized technical vocabulary, and I mostly coin terms on my
> > own. Most often, I construct calques of existing English words, and it
> > sounds alright. But, I'm having trouble with the word "derivation" (as
> > in Guix's low-level build actions). I haven't seen the word "derivation"
> > used anywhere outside of Guix. Why is a "low-level build action" called
> > a "derivation"? If someone could clarify the etymology, it might really
> > help with good translation.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
>
> In Turkish, taking the easy way, we sometimes just bastardize an English
> word, for example in this case we might say "derivasyon."  (Other such
> examples: "depresyon" for depression, "enflasyon" for inflation, etc.)
> Can such a thing be done in Tamil?
>
>
> Alternatively, it might be useful to check what terminology is used in
> Tamil for mathematical derivation / derivatives, as in calculus.
>
>
> By the way, using Google Translate on various English, German and
> Turkish words which all stand for "derivation" (namely "derivation",
> "derivative", "Ableitung", "türev" and "türetme") have all resulted in:
>
> வழித்தோன்றல்
>
> Although translating it back leads to words like "descendants" and
> "grandchildren."
>
>
> - Taylan
>
>

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Re: Etymology of derivation

[Arun Isaac]

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Thank you all for your inputs!

The original Nix publication was helpful. On page 22 of the full thesis,
it says:
--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
Derivation is Nix-speak for a component build action, which derives
the component from its inputs.
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

Direct loan words similar to "derivasyon" are possible. But, they would
be a last resort. வழித்தோன்றல் is surprisingly good, but I think I'll
construct a calque along the lines of "build-message". That seems to be
the most meaningful approach.

It's probably too much trouble now, but even in English, it would help
to have something more descriptive than "derivation". I remember
struggling with the term when first introduced to Guix. "build-message"
would have been much more self-descriptive.

Cheers!

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Re: Etymology of derivation

[Pierre Neidhardt]

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Hi Arun!

Actually I don't understand what "message" would mean in "build-message".
I'm more confused than with "derivation" :p

-- 
Pierre Neidhardt
https://ambrevar.xyz/

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Re: Etymology of derivation

[Pjotr Prins]

On Mon, Nov 02, 2020 at 04:43:14PM +0100, Pierre Neidhardt wrote:
> Hi Arun!
> 
> Actually I don't understand what "message" would mean in "build-message".
> I'm more confused than with "derivation" :p

It is the minimal build information that the build-daemon requires. A
message to the build daemon in a way.

Pj.

Re: Etymology of derivation

[Arun Isaac]

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>> Actually I don't understand what "message" would mean in "build-message".
>> I'm more confused than with "derivation" :p
>
> It is the minimal build information that the build-daemon requires. A
> message to the build daemon in a way.

Perhaps "build request" is a slightly better term. Just as HTTP requests
are to a HTTP daemon, build requests are to the Guix build
daemon.

Besides, I wouldn't translate "build message/request" literally to
Tamil. I might have to very subtly alter the meaning so that it sits
well with common comprehension of the language. There is some degree of
choice in the translation.

Cheers!

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Re: Etymology of derivation

[Ludovic Courtès]

Hi,

Arun Isaac <arunisaac@systemreboot.net> skribis:

> The original Nix publication was helpful. On page 22 of the full thesis,
> it says:
>
> Derivation is Nix-speak for a component build action, which derives
> the component from its inputs.

Not sure if it helps, but I struggled a bit with the etymology of the
word as well and wrote this in the manual (info "(guix) Programming
Interface"):

     Lower-level APIs are available to interact with the daemon and the
  store.  To instruct the daemon to perform a build action, users actually
  provide it with a “derivation”.  A derivation is a low-level
  representation of the build actions to be taken, and the environment in
  which they should occur—derivations are to package definitions what
  assembly is to C programs.  The term “derivation” comes from the fact
  that build results _derive_ from them.

Ludo’.

Re: Etymology of derivation

[Arun Isaac]

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> Lower-level APIs are available to interact with the daemon and the
> store.  To instruct the daemon to perform a build action, users
> actually provide it with a “derivation”.  A derivation is a low-level
> representation of the build actions to be taken, and the environment
> in which they should occur—derivations are to package definitions what
> assembly is to C programs.  The term “derivation” comes from the fact
> that build results _derive_ from them.

This paragraph explains well what derivations are. But, it only helps a
bit with the rather confusing etymology of the word. "derive" and
"derivation" raise very familiar mathematical notions in our mind, that
it may not be possible to really explain our use of "derivation" very
easily.

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Re: Etymology of derivation

[Timothy Sample]

Hello,

Ludovic Courtès <ludo@gnu.org> writes:

> Arun Isaac <arunisaac@systemreboot.net> skribis:
>
>> The original Nix publication was helpful. On page 22 of the full thesis,
>> it says:
>>
>> Derivation is Nix-speak for a component build action, which derives
>> the component from its inputs.
>
> Not sure if it helps, but I struggled a bit with the etymology of the
> word as well and wrote this in the manual (info "(guix) Programming
> Interface"):
>
>      Lower-level APIs are available to interact with the daemon and the
>   store.  To instruct the daemon to perform a build action, users actually
>   provide it with a “derivation”.  A derivation is a low-level
>   representation of the build actions to be taken, and the environment in
>   which they should occur—derivations are to package definitions what
>   assembly is to C programs.  The term “derivation” comes from the fact
>   that build results _derive_ from them.

This is a good explanation of the term in the context of Guix.  Going
back to the etymology, we do use “derivation” in a similar way in
mathematics.  I don’t think it’s particularly elegant, but it shows up.

A “derivation” is the answer to the question “how do you derive X?”.  In
this case, “how do you derive X?” is the same as asking “how did you
arrive at X?” or “what are the steps used to produce X?”.  (Note that it
has nothing to do with taking a derivative in the calculus sense!)

For instance, you might ask “how do you derive the formula for the area
of a circle?”.  If you flip the question around, you could ask “what is
the derivation of the formula for the area of a circle?”.  Here’s an
example titled “Area of a circle - derivation” [1].  I also see people
on popular forums asking things like “can anyone show me the derivation
of this formula for the radius of electron from nucleus?”.

Similarly, I might have “/gnu/store/…-hello” and ask “what were the
steps used to produce this?” or, equivalently, “can anyone show me the
derivation of this?”.  At this point Guix comes to the rescue and says
“/gnu/store/…-hello.drv”!

Of course, I don’t know what Eelco Dolstra was thinking, but that’s how
I understand the term.


-- Tim

[1] https://www.mathopenref.com/circleareaderive.html

Re: Etymology of derivation

[Arun Isaac]

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> For instance, you might ask “how do you derive the formula for the area
> of a circle?”.  If you flip the question around, you could ask “what is
> the derivation of the formula for the area of a circle?”.  Here’s an
> example titled “Area of a circle - derivation” [1].  I also see people
> on popular forums asking things like “can anyone show me the derivation
> of this formula for the radius of electron from nucleus?”.
>
> Similarly, I might have “/gnu/store/…-hello” and ask “what were the
> steps used to produce this?” or, equivalently, “can anyone show me the
> derivation of this?”.  At this point Guix comes to the rescue and says
> “/gnu/store/…-hello.drv”!

Now that you put it so explicitly, Guix's notion of derivation does seem
to come from the mathematical notion of derivation. Perhaps an explicit
analogy like you provided should be in the manual to clarify the
etymology.

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Re: Etymology of derivation

[zimoun]

Hi Arun,

On Mon, 02 Nov 2020 at 00:57, Arun Isaac <arunisaac@systemreboot.net> wrote:

> I am translating Guix to the Tamil language. Tamil doesn't yet have a
> very standardized technical vocabulary, and I mostly coin terms on my
> own. Most often, I construct calques of existing English words, and it
> sounds alright. But, I'm having trouble with the word "derivation" (as
> in Guix's low-level build actions). I haven't seen the word "derivation"
> used anywhere outside of Guix. Why is a "low-level build action" called
> a "derivation"? If someone could clarify the etymology, it might really
> help with good translation.

Maybe the best is to directly ask on Nix channels from where comes from
“derivation”.  Maybe the original author would answer. :-)

BTW, as Vagrant and Timothy pointed, « derivation » means, from the
Collins dictionary:

UK
1. the act of deriving or state of being derived
2. the source, origin, or descent of something, such as a word
3. something derived; a derivative
4. 
  a. the process of deducing a mathematical theorem, formula, etc, as a
  necessary consequence of a set of accepted statements
  b. this sequence of statements
  c. the operation of finding a derivative

US
1.  a deriving or being derived
2.  descent or origination
3.  something derived; a derivative
4.  the source or origin of something
5.  the origin and development of a word; etymology
6. 
  a. Grammar
    the process of forming words from bases by the addition of affixes
    other than inflectional morphemes, or by internal phonetic change
    the derivation of “warmth” from “warm”  
  b. Linguistics
    in generative grammar, the process of forming sentences

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/derivation


Therefore, to me, the word derivation makes sense for the Guix
« derivation ».

All the best,
simon