From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp11.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id EPbmCCha3GHXCwAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 17:09:12 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp11.migadu.com with LMTPS id aJVgBiha3GFHPwEA9RJhRA (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 17:09:12 +0100 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A57F8261E0 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 17:09:11 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1]:46202 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n6xEM-0005Ux-Q2 for larch@yhetil.org; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 11:09:10 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:51732) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n6xBe-0002tf-9G for guix-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 11:06:26 -0500 Received: from [2a00:1450:4864:20::130] (port=46810 helo=mail-lf1-x130.google.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n6xBZ-0005vx-Jz for guix-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 11:06:21 -0500 Received: by mail-lf1-x130.google.com with SMTP id d3so19692682lfv.13 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 08:05:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ZVgMmPHgRHx0F7pVcGZNa2MCGv1uhVou8JDWX4LQVno=; b=Vil/YywtbL+aDwxA5z54RB60GVGRxV4n5YDSB/EMDhUvI+lcGK1z/+f8w6CH7PvsJU D11iw57bl6ynineF5HDVTYnBjsoLdQZAWAPjb1DT6xXmAZWNlNamGmW7ie0Q9P35ikRM aYnrkiLmQQnFcfLTBUGjkuuLfU5LADtdSlrMytaUr82kuNqJTlb6CdbGojgT/VYWvYcI lK1pGWpBbOLJ7j7bNitGoDpVFdTgtrr96ndzCywGKWO42ERQ3/X1C2f8HWlFLTxlYlaS Ry3lbStltQr6oQaq0+CBb8ZzuvLANJ0nbk+o/kwp5GkBG6Bfj+io3UMRqZsC5bqApBok p3Vg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ZVgMmPHgRHx0F7pVcGZNa2MCGv1uhVou8JDWX4LQVno=; b=AqBpLL1qNZhlj6bWzkzsIb6Gghz/dKO/Y1wvvhE+P9nhUOv6Q+kYNSDDtMxzhloYeT wBShuyb+/NLllwN9bmO5pMke1BZiaQrrZ5zeDeKgh2nqLbF7V7lO70su5sGy1MN/BcM0 mVNWJLOPt7qtapDmzPmhXiQrD/mAd6lX0XsAVw3LTvvtdkHdd7UBf6EC0pX+qAA0GN2Y qSfXKW5VJ5aJp/q3OQoenXIfXfh3VLXS7VY24vStYh4p73a6Kf7FB4aHIKsqwWdybOal Uo8AlO7ytu2puuiJ/vxLY++M2n/ZJrBJSNIMuK9kDHnC8mFGmQ+tLbCMpyAtpTvb73w1 GZfQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533i6S2kkDbu2L6FkxYXzE74xXkv5oxYxUyA0/5gPIxuS9C3mMkq jkVM693EldAI/vYNjpBtp1E= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyBMkpVGigPHNuIFhiplKprs834/uEWcoDVdci8dMZahAlz0wAP5wVNxNLt47HNTlBppWH6XA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:1598:: with SMTP id bp24mr290859lfb.65.1641830731852; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 08:05:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from guix-xps13 ([89.113.46.52]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q20sm363421lfa.280.2022.01.10.08.05.30 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 10 Jan 2022 08:05:31 -0800 (PST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Andr=C3=A9_A=2E_Gomes?= To: Matt Subject: Re: Guix Documentation Meetup References: <87k0faa27i.fsf@elephly.net> <17e3a8189d5.bf62342823554.2534240434231206600@excalamus.com> <17e40afe906.c104327471465.5782260335382192651@excalamus.com> <8735lwufjx.fsf@gmail.com> <17e4437d4b3.ed52eea353456.7978305425404430081@excalamus.com> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 19:05:30 +0300 In-Reply-To: <17e4437d4b3.ed52eea353456.7978305425404430081@excalamus.com> (matt@excalamus.com's message of "Mon, 10 Jan 2022 08:40:16 -0500") Message-ID: <87czkzo9th.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Host-Lookup-Failed: Reverse DNS lookup failed for 2a00:1450:4864:20::130 (failed) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::130; envelope-from=andremegafone@gmail.com; helo=mail-lf1-x130.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -12 X-Spam_score: -1.3 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.3 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: guix-devel , calcium Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1641830951; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=ZVgMmPHgRHx0F7pVcGZNa2MCGv1uhVou8JDWX4LQVno=; b=hEda4KxUtCZNVtWAuPm4Sve3FD6JkSaY8GMoVfevYYYTl3uJzbmNH1UnUA0G7wG5sQDKdq lTSjkpfIMBQ0Yps26VSX2H/JO4CtclxXAIrJbQNnjU8lWLbmHZOHlEVd0bTOT6CvZ1e8eI Ixves5ki6Z1xlNtEjf02GvVaBweqvZtXDyX/HU91drWrEJ9PkWcD6ap9Ley/8T3VIum4sF E5ZeXFfl8Dnygb3JiN5HndQ6Lrhf3genYALyDAHjZEh/R77AMiWLOK4BZmuXX/ehEyoTdB Q6bOdGW3Tr1B0L1SAU1dvMP3wmUtmVbQcJ7Ad5pmHBI9LrbYwHNAvS2ello/tg== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1641830951; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=hN82jC0EQPbaVCQvC2TcD3X0HbvGScAZT7kyqxA8tvX9hYryIqtOQaGM9LDEJNMIF+r3xN r7xeiiB7cF8oCYWpqjzGUaPTlAXcEWKcycW9A+C0y7uG72H7aznY/vzwM+MzN6sUg6fXHp KjwBMPpjeNSuUzuGgraL/k9ARikV5DGlOrKtHlbWkQkAFFf5wCy6u1UPt4ZjSh4y0rEwmz dLBtVQjgFqhuI/wTjvGGGC82JOLMHJI1xXbFdapxOq9Z6DKBXxxGwqXk33eAge3N1ZDoVo 3xrrh/Sr6uhQzVWpMaAQh80cVStOScLPqs+FmnS2yM+KH0fa1XsrvqPAkPh1iw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b="Vil/Yywt"; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=gmail.com (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -2.51 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b="Vil/Yywt"; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=gmail.com (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: A57F8261E0 X-Spam-Score: -2.51 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: PkZgKTOGna3B Matt writes: > > I'm not connected with Guix with any way - a mere enthusiast and > > observer. > > I'm not sure what you mean. Being excited about something and taking > the time to observe it, like listening to music, is a connection, > right? I mentioned because ultimately the final word isn't mine :) > I'm curious, what makes you feel not connected with Guix? I feel connected "philosophically" as a (basic) user, but not as a contributor. Guix, by itself, is a complex system. Honestly, I suck at using Guile in a project of this scale (no, I don't think the documentation is poor). I have some understanding in Emacs and slime/common lisp systems, but I still need to dive into geiser. There are difficulties of other sorts as well. This is a Unix system and that fact alone requires knowledge and experience. I assume that most core contributors are/were involved in other efforts such as Debian, Arch, Gentoo, etc. Besides experience in "system administration" and HPC. I don't know how many people in the community have non-CS/Unix/programming backgrounds so I share some personal thoughts below. It's not that I want to share my life, but it might resonate with the experiences of others. My background is in theoretical physics and pure maths. I never cared about computers or computation, until I had to find a job circa 2018. I landed on a wind energy company which owns a supercomputer (running GNU/Linux of course), and without me realising, I was being "forced" to be a software developer. I had to learn a lot and fast. Soon, I understood that the bottleneck on the success of a given project isn't in the lack of domain-specific/scientific knowledge, but in the lack of robust (software) tools and "software knowledge" in general. Most "scientists" think: "these IT/programmers can't do their work properly". This division ("scientists" and "programmers") is toxic. Yes, it's VERY hard to find people who do both well. Guix a step towards tearing this wall apart for good. It's not by chance that Guix has a strong presence on HPC. (Yes, it's hell to depend on an admin to install stuff). It's interesting to note that the effort comes from the "programmers" side. I think the bottleneck on Guix's world domination is precisely because "scientists" generally make little effort in that regard. It's hard to make "non-sexy" things look sexy. Go and tell a "data-scientist" about reproducible builds. Good luck. It's ok if things are overwhelming and hard. Things eventually click and start to make sense.=20=20 -- Andr=C3=A9 A. Gomes "Free Thought, Free World"