From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp10.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id wCOkCTlPomJbdwEAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 21:51:21 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp10.migadu.com with LMTPS id YIPwCDlPomKOjAAAG6o9tA (envelope-from ) for ; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 21:51:21 +0200 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E08EA20394 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2022 21:51:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:42834 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nzOBb-0004Dd-RE for larch@yhetil.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 15:51:19 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:33300) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nzOBA-0004Ah-QW for guix-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 15:50:52 -0400 Received: from mugam.systemreboot.net ([139.59.75.54]:34396) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nzOB6-0002Ia-IM; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 15:50:51 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=systemreboot.net; s=default; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date: References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=fbJk8GYBNYJBIOlsmG4IfE46heUqu+aJC35RAqb3l0Y=; b=fRfDl7Ne/QAcKFx5/41u0lUUM/ 4aaT+97OhdX2Wh9MbKO0NR6yDWUJhtl4qy3IonBAWwvEZ+HO5bG4DtXibm7ugn/Pd05gLVX+Mxj52 s0d339p64JsArzi4FS7WQtElKfuZYG5QHCATCMwX/3NgakL/VoBf/HZaKLWGJmdSh9kCtK5kBfgeN Goa3OhYr4o/IyZGlHbwXsm7GMdnnjx6iEWo/0fH/Klskh5D7tt3echBop65KUgYHE/LkWsZQ2VONF 5yxHSp4utoky/jSusPExc04+pcxwuiqpZNaQDn+8GTFcxFeMi3df4f6u/xV2YMlMNlQOVNi+sfVKW PN7ScQxQ==; Received: from [192.168.2.1] (port=4050 helo=steel) by systemreboot.net with esmtpsa (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.95) (envelope-from ) id 1nzOAv-000Ayf-EL; Fri, 10 Jun 2022 01:20:37 +0530 From: Arun Isaac To: Giovanni Biscuolo , Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s?= , Guix Devel Cc: GNU Guix maintainers Subject: Re: On commit access, patch review, and remaining healthy In-Reply-To: <87tu8viix0.fsf@xelera.eu> References: <87ee07m77w.fsf@gnu.org> <877d5um1oe.fsf@systemreboot.net> <87tu8viix0.fsf@xelera.eu> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2022 01:20:29 +0530 Message-ID: <87bkv1lipm.fsf@systemreboot.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Received-SPF: pass client-ip=139.59.75.54; envelope-from=arunisaac@systemreboot.net; helo=mugam.systemreboot.net X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-To: larch@yhetil.org X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1654804280; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=fbJk8GYBNYJBIOlsmG4IfE46heUqu+aJC35RAqb3l0Y=; b=twhHMVfmHhpiPaCxmZVM1lkentAcWOq35e0je/B7t6r7MId5T7/ihUtzawx8KXNBn5Jblj tpkutlE03RpUMhnV7MPUxwgcqrnX41W6/v7pA+yj0YT1ecrFij89iqpA1xma3ZdDxeHfl7 D4u3/YI04n7SaDsuzT0MKXOEXuKsfG2gQuZNF+RyOw0/9t4xvmtRTYyeTovpN86xuq0kCq 0BePnpP2Akfuoh7OBvlWPjc1TUhQA6LkQDSp+QV+2ayFo+ai3mn2QusySsu7hfezd6LqTD a5OmFMQNX6RaQZpUP2+E1uHXO9lB5Vc8ZfPtjPxhaml8XALo9BilcWn9fdhFcQ== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1654804280; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=rCDDLkTj56SPFA8f4G1v/YbkDWQLqegOmw5tr8u9xxWADhPLPsq2Rz+LhBJnIsQ8uiGRIG d+NlgNmogK9n65p5tz/rbNZkFCLHg0MzOfz41HviqFKbW4AbB2d9uc5e16BzgkfPei9BJf JAODt4aRRmisAsKSRxLMKVqulzRum0OMymkc6OQVWgCB66wb6NhQml1nUP3CQsGHOy/1/S Yo3kIrjTc5BczvD6CApaCfkgU1K0SId0Evyk81NEtOfG+Df3+/Vce0vW7YHaZrf23W+0OF L8OVy8JFRQ8hfhxZxRjrtVcOhaJRiAjvppY8Gg0YAm3ipH961q2bLX5ul57x8A== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=systemreboot.net header.s=default header.b=fRfDl7Ne; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=systemreboot.net (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: 6.70 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=systemreboot.net header.s=default header.b=fRfDl7Ne; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=systemreboot.net (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: E08EA20394 X-Spam-Score: 6.70 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: +HZj1VAd7rUx Hi Giovanni, >> Guix has very high coding standards > > Do you think other software distribution do have less high coding > standards? I meant that Guix has very high coding/packaging standards in the following senses: - We prefer to not bundle dependencies. Tracking out bundled dependencies, git submodules, etc. and figuring out how to rewire everything so it works with unbundled dependencies can be really tricky for some packages. - We build strictly from source. - We aim to package tests for all packages. - We have strict conventions for commit messages. Our commit message Changelog is a strange dated practice from the time before good version control systems. I can live with it, but not everyone likes it. Let's just say I've heard complaints about it offlist. - We don't just list the main license of a package. We trace out the license of each and every file, if they are different from the main license. - Our synopses and descriptions are not casually copy-pasted from the project website. We try to rewrite and improve on them if necessary. - We have to be careful about pushing changes that will cause too many rebuilds. We have a core-updates process for that. I could go on forever, but you get the idea. I do agree with most of these coding standards, and have no problem with following them. But, it does add some pressure to the process. I don't have much experience with other distributions except for Arch Linux and that too only with the AUR (Arch User Repository). The AUR was more of a wiki than a centrally curated repository. Anyone can contribute packages, and there is no review. Most packages don't run tests, and the standards are generally low. >> but that means that there is a high cost of failure > > please can you expand on this? What is that cost of failure? The cost of failure is mostly in the mind. A commit is something that has your name on it and lives on in the repo history *forever*. So, it better be good. That's the pressure. I do have one or two commits in the guix repo with badly borked commit messages. >> and a pressure to live up to that high standard. This means that even >> if I'm 99% sure of a commit, I tend to leave it to others because of >> that nagging 1% doubt I have about some trivial aspect of the >> patch. The 1% doubt could even be about really trivial things like >> indentation or the name of a variable. In other words, perfectionism >> causes paralysis. > > generally speaking I really understand your feeling (the "impostor > syndrome" as Ludo' say) but please do not be paralyzed by this feeling, > do /not/ have fear to make a mistake, we (pluralis majestatis :-D ) are > not here to judge you I know. ;-) > specifically speaking, IMHO in cases like this you should send an > email-reply to that bug (patch) explaining the 1% you are unsure of Yeah, I would. But, often that 1% is too nitpicky to be worth reporting. Sometimes, I fix the 1% myself and push. But often, I confess that I just leave it to other committers. >> This excessive self-doubt is created by feeling like one doesn't >> "belong" in the elite community of Guix hackers > > I undestand there are many meanings of "elite" [1], but if it's an > elite I meant "elite" in the sense that Guix hackers are among the most skilled programmers I've known. > it is /for sure/ a very open group of persons Definitely, I love the community! That's why I'm still here after all these years! Cheers! :-) Arun