From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp2 ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id 2J60KTdIjGAtWgEAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 20:11:03 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp2 with LMTPS id OF5sJTdIjGCkYgAAB5/wlQ (envelope-from ) for ; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 18:11:03 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5FEB42BB10 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 20:11:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:57470 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lcXbR-0003WI-Vt for larch@yhetil.org; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 14:11:02 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:48550) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lcXM2-0001Ce-UO for guix-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 13:55:07 -0400 Received: from relay8-d.mail.gandi.net ([217.70.183.201]:59499) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lcXLx-0006yI-Tc; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 13:55:04 -0400 X-Originating-IP: 92.169.147.163 Received: from mimimi (lfbn-idf2-1-1335-163.w92-169.abo.wanadoo.fr [92.169.147.163]) (Authenticated sender: mail@ambrevar.xyz) by relay8-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8F7A71BF208; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 17:54:57 +0000 (UTC) From: Pierre Neidhardt To: Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s?= , Leo Le Bouter Subject: Re: Leaving the GNU Guix community In-Reply-To: <87h7jof2o7.fsf@gnu.org> References: <888c71d21bbbc8dc7e8b4d5396694c83@zaclys.net> <87h7jof2o7.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 19:54:56 +0200 Message-ID: <878s4zirnz.fsf@ambrevar.xyz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=217.70.183.201; envelope-from=mail@ambrevar.xyz; helo=relay8-d.mail.gandi.net X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (-0.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, FROM_SUSPICIOUS_NTLD=0.499, PDS_OTHER_BAD_TLD=1.999, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: guix-devel@gnu.org Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1619806263; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post; bh=8QNkDzVRWDn2Y0hexUsIJjWSTU3HORR00cTAzezi1ns=; b=abMPYMlBdA9E9nc2sStOo26X6kZrL0+OXwl3BjtCH49WQqwt7OgjxUhYnk48gSewHFN38J eYbY4B8o1h1SsxSTd3JujMVeBxg1XCf6qaLtn3BE72/TkPdtyrCDBQcidgNd3NGHRTk/18 //FkVIrXPrvJNxWUOuVa/jgWhj+io6MajTFbSHX9ZrZXtJVPToi4IHPCpr/oh//UU+dWYD uFneHCDq+ih3JBG6VY7nE5CXxNS6sF/jI8BEbysOXtY3dXkIrXqxSXczS5U1fojQlZO0nK LnNFmekecOabVw2vQn91dxU1rgWwvzkiWw8uo+q5lYnhbWP4UsHxbhEUF1YdgQ== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1619806263; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=BP4sINfGghHUJI3t0smWJpSyPpNwPFCOGemkekujdT4nsp2VQxJgzm4Sttsyuw9QtDMuBX 8ePgVqIkhm7KuBuyFnRpfAgop6yL1mGGMnJtrG++qAqh4q+KeUAPQyDR78/HJx6HiH8eTL JNxnDJLoczX1p++X4BOKB7JSnZgreB7LQbHVSE7O4B+DkZpzXXpe1Lyz1uzD0A3AUO19Vh R1Bj4JAE+SHieH5H2K5K5QItvWIHf7geTM93QZ7opEmrXfnXPlhkB73KvPk4eOmQxUztJA YWEU4y9B85cTW+/6Iw7wC9w8G2U1EzhbGfq0Rg/sMoRIKJ5EetRUf+TEY/V8Ow== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -4.56 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 5FEB42BB10 X-Spam-Score: -4.56 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: AgVlegSxCFh5 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Ludovic Court=C3=A8s writes: > You write that =E2=80=9Cthe difference between the beginner and the exper= ienced > is a construction=E2=80=9D. I sympathize with your rejection of the > student-professor domination. However, I think newcomers can and should > benefit from guidance by the experienced; that=E2=80=99s the only way we = can > truly blur the experienced/beginner distinction. As an =E2=80=9Cexperien= ced=E2=80=9D > person in this project, I consider it part of my work to help others. I > believe knowledge sharing can be achieved without it becoming a > domination relation. That is at least what I think most people here > strive for. I have been wanting to raise this issue for a while, so maybe now is the right time!=C2=A0:) On the educational level, I fully agree with Ludo. I wonder, however, if this educational hierarchy does not transpire into political hierarchies. In other words, if we certainly need experienced users to teach and help newcomers, do we need experienced users to take more executive decisions than newcomers? At the moment, it seems that the right to police others is reserved to a privileged group. Should it really be this way? It does not seem obvious to me that this separation benefits the community, maybe there would be an interesting discussion to have here. For instance, if a long-term, experienced contributor misbehaves (be it with commits or communication), can they be policed? The same way that less experienced users are policed? By whom? Can a less experienced user police an experienced one? There is a lot to discuss here, including transparency of communication, class of privileges, protocols for exclusion, etc. I don't know if these issues have been raised and addressed in the Guix community; maybe there is room for improvement. Anyhow, discussing more about these things can only help organizing ourselves better and building a stronger community! :) Cheers! =2D-=20 Pierre Neidhardt https://ambrevar.xyz/ --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQFGBAEBCAAwFiEEUPM+LlsMPZAEJKvom9z0l6S7zH8FAmCMRHASHG1haWxAYW1i cmV2YXIueHl6AAoJEJvc9Jeku8x/SZkH/3Iz1TLNoOQOjgWhW55yQ07rrzn0bTr/ EBfFsWiss54oSTZD1YYGRf9DFnF+o09etpvJMmY58LXi07l8WB6unbETYSsWIDxL /BdYk5kl6fw2b/tTC5Yl/5mvm0KhKXthisf0FXuiFSJR9AhRIjL93ZdBB88zgVbN IVjITSpXLQAO85C9SfyaVXxUhZpZ2XFe/+5qdFnMEOk3tSMrXzzYWSXRGv2pjdoR suRzY2slHHC+lp3MZFgtJtQ+qfHyGtIa7+5Ie1X4vvSKifpctJyASGJDNxBFCJLa zspn5oIq9bMAuHmJPMHOL+ytywbjAykkNoKMNuMW4Y0moyZ6ILlazp4= =6/ue -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--