From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp0 ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id WOwaIwIzyWD2qwAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 16 Jun 2021 01:08:50 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp0 with LMTPS id kHBZHgIzyWC/bQAA1q6Kng (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 15 Jun 2021 23:08:50 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CDF6F1A5F2 for ; Wed, 16 Jun 2021 01:08:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:58718 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ltIAq-0001Jf-QC for larch@yhetil.org; Tue, 15 Jun 2021 19:08:48 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:59278) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ltIAg-0001JT-Na for guix-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Jun 2021 19:08:38 -0400 Received: from world.peace.net ([64.112.178.59]:47598) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ltIAe-0000jd-Io for guix-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Jun 2021 19:08:38 -0400 Received: from mhw by world.peace.net with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1ltIAS-0003gL-Ev; Tue, 15 Jun 2021 19:08:24 -0400 From: Mark H Weaver To: Leo Famulari , Leo Prikler Subject: Re: Telemetry on by default kitty In-Reply-To: References: <87fsxm7s69.fsf@disroot.org> <87eed695yb.fsf@nckx> <87czsq7oyl.fsf@disroot.org> <87bl8a92r4.fsf@nckx> <83e3ea6de4daa14a81c826d9200941719abe2f82.camel@student.tugraz.at> <877diy7c7w.fsf@disroot.org> <2e8ede06b4786e4604269b9a7a4a5f04b154040e.camel@student.tugraz.at> <05c05536dde5660ada17b9f4dc8dc041272c1a4a.camel@student.tugraz.at> Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2021 19:07:25 -0400 Message-ID: <878s3an2uv.fsf@netris.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=64.112.178.59; envelope-from=mhw@netris.org; helo=world.peace.net X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: guix-devel@gnu.org Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1623798530; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post; bh=630ndMGQbANRdoBxRHcKyRZn8mRtXBKoc2yaBu/QSIk=; b=eYViDWSZ+eyykN3mTCBfhGByRydVSjoKciG5PJTKAacwG7304oTLz6xf1vQE1zupMoN6ap yQ5ss6R23IshKpglGG8koLVVRTHRy0dHIhQlUh9uXivcnFXPsKPDC+oJMiNt+pN6dij2/r lBKWQevNBRlDBk5CusmTc4eyV+F+Z2IUmvdGCOHEU3aNc+SDB4WSHhqEvdzMXSCYLWpEdZ e4FydVvTl0tpODJUl9oY9nMB48Tojq2nwB2umsAijGqfG3voh4S4+EhF9d0pTW/r2rGAhO vBVTLz0fH5gylDM3Gu3lv1EG8YFYfJeYZAwIg23yzbm/op184eSSP0103vXwuQ== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1623798530; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=Q+AQoU6T5Rg7BUCGP8F2cNCiSXd4Yms9ZZ1vVOqYfcLFgqTZ19M1EntKE24Lk8bMYB7/b4 SPUlMYoNYLSHkK6q5JYSYwBA2xZt2iwCBpGzkvXPGVWqujWfMe6EAQ8NuL0uDontig+y1y ReBbHi+N/iuf1cAnKSMHtOUf8S/alxu5qYH+sn++Iy/Cg7DW6d2kPJ+WH4usDd4vxz6Sek ZrplWZMYSG+BTocibfxUCa837CM1N8764OvaP2kwTSJbpGca1V/GtY+j7lPySqk+ssfHa3 6mfABELT93ILeTIYJiJxX1JcVtI/z/HN+bPP4em/lI4mCyVNt9x4f8rsoLn12g== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -2.42 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: CDF6F1A5F2 X-Spam-Score: -2.42 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: nOA97GWW46/g Hi Leo, Leo Famulari writes: > I feel that, ultimately, we already trust most software authors > implicitly and totally, because we are not auditing their programs. Agreed. > So, I am personally happy to enable the telemetry for most software I > use =E2=80=94 especially if it is free software and especially for softwa= re > that deals with the network. That's your personal decision, and I agree that telemetry functionality should be permissible in Guix, as long as it's opt-in. > I don't personally see the point of treating telemetry as a special > case in terms of trust or consent. One problem is that telemetry involves trusting more than just the developer. Telemetry also reveals information to the user's internet service provider, the network operators between user and the server, the company that controls the hardware that the server runs on, and any intelligence agencies or other hostile actors that have infiltrated those networks or servers. Moreover, if the server keeps logs, governments may coerce the developer into surrendering those logs. Therefore, when a program generates unsolicited and unexpected network traffic -- and I certainly do *not* expect a terminal program to generate network traffic -- it is effectively leaking some of your private information to all of those other actors. That, in itself, is arguably a breach of trust, regardless of the developer's presumably good intentions. I understand that many people have given up on protecting their privacy, or simply don't care. Kitty's developer seems to be of that mindset. However, I strongly believe that each Guix user should be given the opportunity to make that decision for themselves, i.e. that telemetry, auto-update checks, and more generally unsolicited network traffic should be disabled until the user has given informed consent. What do other people think? Regards, Mark --=20 Disinformation flourishes because many people care deeply about injustice but very few check the facts. Ask me about .