Please put the system-configuration into the image

Please put the system-configuration into the image

[Hartmut Goebel]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 828 bytes --]

Hi,

I'm afraid, I'm late to the discussion and I don't find the thread about
it in the archives. But I want to share me experience as a "user":

I'm in strong favor of putting the system-configuration used to build
the disk-image into the disk-image.

Yesterday I wanted to give the provided QEMU-image a try (I'm still
using guix on a foreign distro) and play with the system-config. Being a
"newbie" to GuixSD it would be a great starting-point for experiments.
But I did not find it? There seems to be no system-config.scm in /etc,
so I would have to start from scratch  - which is not that encouraging :-(

Just my 42 cent

-- 
Regards
Hartmut Goebel

| Hartmut Goebel          | h.goebel@crazy-compilers.com               |
| www.crazy-compilers.com | compilers which you thought are impossible |


[-- Attachment #2: 0xBF773B65.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-keys, Size: 14855 bytes --]

Re: Please put the system-configuration into the image

[Adam Pribyl]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: TEXT/PLAIN, Size: 996 bytes --]

On Tue, 5 Sep 2017, Hartmut Goebel wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm afraid, I'm late to the discussion and I don't find the thread about
> it in the archives. But I want to share me experience as a "user":
>
> I'm in strong favor of putting the system-configuration used to build
> the disk-image into the disk-image.
>
> Yesterday I wanted to give the provided QEMU-image a try (I'm still
> using guix on a foreign distro) and play with the system-config. Being a
> "newbie" to GuixSD it would be a great starting-point for experiments.
> But I did not find it? There seems to be no system-config.scm in /etc,
> so I would have to start from scratch  - which is not that encouraging :-(

There is example config in doc
https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/manual/guix.html#Using-the-Configuration-System
available as info too. But I agree, that some "startup" sysconfig-config 
would be fine too inside the distro.

> Just my 42 cent
>
> -- 
> Regards
> Hartmut Goebel

Adam Pribyl

Re: Please put the system-configuration into the image

[ng0]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1284 bytes --]

Hartmut Goebel transcribed 15K bytes:
> Hi,
> 
> I'm afraid, I'm late to the discussion and I don't find the thread about
> it in the archives. But I want to share me experience as a "user":
> 
> I'm in strong favor of putting the system-configuration used to build
> the disk-image into the disk-image.
> 
> Yesterday I wanted to give the provided QEMU-image a try (I'm still
> using guix on a foreign distro) and play with the system-config. Being a
> "newbie" to GuixSD it would be a great starting-point for experiments.
> But I did not find it? There seems to be no system-config.scm in /etc,
> so I would have to start from scratch  - which is not that encouraging :-(
> 
> Just my 42 cent
> 
> -- 
> Regards
> Hartmut Goebel
> 
> | Hartmut Goebel          | h.goebel@crazy-compilers.com               |
> | www.crazy-compilers.com | compilers which you thought are impossible |
> 

Hi!

The config used to build the disk-image is in gnu/system/install.scm
see https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/manual/html_node/Building-the-Installation-Image.html#Building-the-Installation-Image
hope this helps.
-- 
ng0
GnuPG: A88C8ADD129828D7EAC02E52E22F9BBFEE348588
GnuPG: https://n0is.noblogs.org/my-keys
https://www.infotropique.org https://krosos.org

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --]

Re: Please put the system-configuration into the image

[Hartmut Goebel]

Am 05.09.2017 um 20:05 schrieb ng0:
> The config used to build the disk-image is in gnu/system/install.scm
> see https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/manual/html_node/Building-the-Installation-Image.html#Building-the-Installation-Image
> hope this helps.

Thanks for pointing to this – I didn't recognize that.

Nevertheless I would expect to have it in the image so I can start
hacking without first searching the manual and copy-pasting the file.
This is primary to lower the entry level :-)

-- 
Regards
Hartmut Goebel

| Hartmut Goebel          | h.goebel@crazy-compilers.com               |
| www.crazy-compilers.com | compilers which you thought are impossible |

Re: Please put the system-configuration into the image

[Ludovic Courtès]

Hartmut Goebel <h.goebel@crazy-compilers.com> skribis:

> Am 05.09.2017 um 20:05 schrieb ng0:
>> The config used to build the disk-image is in gnu/system/install.scm
>> see https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/manual/html_node/Building-the-Installation-Image.html#Building-the-Installation-Image
>> hope this helps.
>
> Thanks for pointing to this – I didn't recognize that.
>
> Nevertheless I would expect to have it in the image so I can start
> hacking without first searching the manual and copy-pasting the file.
> This is primary to lower the entry level :-)

It is in the image, in the form of the (gnu system install) module.

However, I don’t quite understand the use case: you’d like to hack on
the OS declaration of the image from within the image?  That sounds
inconvenient no?

When hacking on that image, I simply do that from my main GuixSD
installation with:

  guix system vm gnu/system/install.scm

HTH,
Ludo’.

Re: Please put the system-configuration into the image

[Hartmut Goebel]

Am 07.09.2017 um 10:30 schrieb Ludovic Courtès:
> However, I don’t quite understand the use case: you’d like to hack on
> the OS declaration of the image from within the image?  That sounds
> inconvenient no?

My use case is this:

I plan to use GuixSD for one of my systems. Prior to installing GuixSD
on real hardware, I want to test it and see how a GuixSD system would
work and feel. And taking the perspective of a non-developer, I don't
have any GuixSD yet. I may be using Fedora or Debian and want to try out
GuixSD. For this I use the QEMU image

My understanding is that I would have a system-definition describing
this very system and if I want to change the system-configuration, I
change the system-definition. On e.g. Debian I would apt-get software
and change config-files, while on GuixSD I would change the
system-definition and reconfigure.

And I imagine to have the corresponding system-definition *in* the
system, since in this use-case there is no separate "main GuixSD
installation". Like when using ansible, puppet, etc. for managing *this*
system, I need the system definition *for* this system *in* this system.

I hope this is clearer now.

-- 
Regards
Hartmut Goebel

| Hartmut Goebel          | h.goebel@crazy-compilers.com               |
| www.crazy-compilers.com | compilers which you thought are impossible |

Re: Please put the system-configuration into the image

[ng0]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2217 bytes --]

Hartmut Goebel transcribed 1.3K bytes:
> Am 07.09.2017 um 10:30 schrieb Ludovic Courtès:
> > However, I don’t quite understand the use case: you’d like to hack on
> > the OS declaration of the image from within the image?  That sounds
> > inconvenient no?
> 
> My use case is this:
> 
> I plan to use GuixSD for one of my systems. Prior to installing GuixSD
> on real hardware, I want to test it and see how a GuixSD system would
> work and feel. And taking the perspective of a non-developer, I don't
> have any GuixSD yet. I may be using Fedora or Debian and want to try out
> GuixSD. For this I use the QEMU image

You can take any system configuration file and build a shared or free-standing
vm with the "guix system" function. It's really easy this way.
"guix system vm config.scm" would produce a vm and in the end you get a
shell script you can use to start this vm.

> My understanding is that I would have a system-definition describing
> this very system and if I want to change the system-configuration, I
> change the system-definition. On e.g. Debian I would apt-get software
> and change config-files, while on GuixSD I would change the
> system-definition and reconfigure.
> 
> And I imagine to have the corresponding system-definition *in* the
> system, since in this use-case there is no separate "main GuixSD
> installation". Like when using ansible, puppet, etc. for managing *this*
> system, I need the system definition *for* this system *in* this system.
> 
> I hope this is clearer now.

Wouldn't simply keeping the configuration file(s) in a git help
(for a start)? This is what I do personally:
https://gitweb.krosos.org/systems

For infotropique I have this combination of plain config files (templates)
and (almost) the same content in variations of the before referenced "install.scm".
> -- 
> Regards
> Hartmut Goebel
> 
> | Hartmut Goebel          | h.goebel@crazy-compilers.com               |
> | www.crazy-compilers.com | compilers which you thought are impossible |
> 
> 
> 
> 

-- 
ng0
GnuPG: A88C8ADD129828D7EAC02E52E22F9BBFEE348588
GnuPG: https://n0is.noblogs.org/my-keys
https://www.infotropique.org https://krosos.org

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --]

Re: Please put the system-configuration into the image

[Hartmut Goebel]

Am 07.09.2017 um 14:43 schrieb ng0:
> You can take any system configuration file and build a shared or free-standing
> vm with the "guix system" function. It

I'm afraid, you did not get the point (No offence meant!): I know that I
can do this. I also know that I can maintain configs via git. But all
this is the developers perspective.

If somebody is downloading the ISO-image and installing GuixSD on some
machine – stand-alone, no other GuixSD systems around: He/she would
store the system-config somewhere on the machine, change it and
"reconfigure" and hack around. (At least this is what I would do.) So
why there is no starting-point for system-config in the image? Why would
the user need to download it from some (no quite obvious) internet-address?

I also would expect to have the config for this very system at hand.
Yes, the manual has a section "Building the Installation Image", but
*if* I ever recognize this section, I'd still have to dig into the
source and fetch the actual file.

For making live easier for new users and for encouraging them to re-gain
the power over their computer, we should IMHO serve the config on 
silver plate.

I hope my motivation is more clear now.

-- 
Regards
Hartmut Goebel

| Hartmut Goebel          | h.goebel@crazy-compilers.com               |
| www.crazy-compilers.com | compilers which you thought are impossible |

Re: Please put the system-configuration into the image

[Vincent Legoll]

I didn't want to get involved in this but feel the need to chime in to
add my +1 on Hartmut's idea.

On Fri, Sep 8, 2017 at 12:11 PM, Hartmut Goebel
<h.goebel@crazy-compilers.com> wrote:
> Am 07.09.2017 um 14:43 schrieb ng0:
>> You can take any system configuration file and build a shared or free-standing
>> vm with the "guix system" function. It
>
> I'm afraid, you did not get the point (No offence meant!): I know that I
> can do this. I also know that I can maintain configs via git. But all
> this is the developers perspective.

Yes I also feel it that way

> If somebody is downloading the ISO-image and installing GuixSD on some
> machine – stand-alone, no other GuixSD systems around: He/she would
> store the system-config somewhere on the machine, change it and
> "reconfigure" and hack around. (At least this is what I would do.)

That's what I did during my previous attempts at trying GuixSD.
Did this in a QEmu VM.

> So
> why there is no starting-point for system-config in the image? Why would
> the user need to download it from some (no quite obvious) internet-address?

+1

> I also would expect to have the config for this very system at hand.
> Yes, the manual has a section "Building the Installation Image", but
> *if* I ever recognize this section, I'd still have to dig into the
> source and fetch the actual file.
>
> For making live easier for new users and for encouraging them to re-gain
> the power over their computer, we should IMHO serve the config on
> silver plate.
>
> I hope my motivation is more clear now.

You're not alone

-- 
Vincent Legoll

Re: Please put the system-configuration into the image

[Julien Lepiller]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2591 bytes --]

Le 8 septembre 2017 12:11:45 GMT+02:00, Hartmut Goebel <h.goebel@crazy-compilers.com> a écrit :
>Am 07.09.2017 um 14:43 schrieb ng0:
>> You can take any system configuration file and build a shared or
>free-standing
>> vm with the "guix system" function. It
>
>I'm afraid, you did not get the point (No offence meant!): I know that
>I
>can do this. I also know that I can maintain configs via git. But all
>this is the developers perspective.
>
>If somebody is downloading the ISO-image and installing GuixSD on some
>machine – stand-alone, no other GuixSD systems around: He/she would
>store the system-config somewhere on the machine, change it and
>"reconfigure" and hack around. (At least this is what I would do.) So
>why there is no starting-point for system-config in the image? Why
>would
>the user need to download it from some (no quite obvious)
>internet-address?
>
>I also would expect to have the config for this very system at hand.
>Yes, the manual has a section "Building the Installation Image", but
>*if* I ever recognize this section, I'd still have to dig into the
>source and fetch the actual file.
>
>For making live easier for new users and for encouraging them to
>re-gain
>the power over their computer, we should IMHO serve the config on 
>silver plate.
>
>I hope my motivation is more clear now.
>
>-- 
>Regards
>Hartmut Goebel
>
>| Hartmut Goebel          | h.goebel@crazy-compilers.com              
>|
>| www.crazy-compilers.com | compilers which you thought are impossible
>|

I also agree with Hartmut. In the installation image, we have /etc/configuration which contains some sample configuration you can start from to define your system. There is no need to have the configuration of the live system I think, because it is not what you want to install on your disk.

The qemu image however is meant to be copied directly to the virtual disk of a VM, so it is not a live system, but your own system. I think it would be better for the user to be able to access the configuration directly from the VM and start from a known-good config before reconfiguring. I now have a running GuixSD VM and it was a pain to configure, because the interface to the VM did not allow copy-pasting and had a strange plugin for interpreting my keystrokes. Had I have this file on the VM, I could have modified only a small portion of it and continue with ssh. But I had to copy the sample config character by character and hope I did not do any mistake.

If no one beats me to this, I'll try to make a patch for it this week-end.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2908 bytes --]

Re: Please put the system-configuration into the image

[Vincent Legoll]

On Fri, Sep 8, 2017 at 1:45 PM, Julien Lepiller <julien@lepiller.eu> wrote:
> The qemu image however is meant to be copied directly to the virtual disk of
> a VM, so it is not a live system, but your own system. I think it would be
> better for the user to be able to access the configuration directly from the
> VM and start from a known-good config before reconfiguring.

It's not just a known good configuration that you want here, but the exact one
that has been used to generate the image.

> I now have a
> running GuixSD VM and it was a pain to configure, because the interface to
> the VM did not allow copy-pasting and had a strange plugin for interpreting
> my keystrokes. Had I have this file on the VM, I could have modified only a
> small portion of it and continue with ssh. But I had to copy the sample
> config character by character and hope I did not do any mistake.

Been there, done that too...

-- 
Vincent Legoll

Re: Please put the system-configuration into the image

[Ludovic Courtès]

Hi,

Hartmut Goebel <h.goebel@crazy-compilers.com> skribis:

> If somebody is downloading the ISO-image and installing GuixSD on some
> machine – stand-alone, no other GuixSD systems around: He/she would
> store the system-config somewhere on the machine, change it and
> "reconfigure" and hack around. (At least this is what I would do.) So
> why there is no starting-point for system-config in the image? Why would
> the user need to download it from some (no quite obvious) internet-address?

As a user, you do *not* want to use the installation OS¹ as a template
for your own system: it’s way too specific to a live installation image
and more complicated than a “regular” system.

Instead, you’ll want to use one of the three templates that are
provided.  They’re in the manual² (which is on tty2 when you’re
installing), and also in /etc/configuration during the installation.  No
need to download them from a non-obvious internet address.

Am I missing something?

Thanks,
Lud’.

¹ https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix.git/tree/gnu/system/install.scm#n296
² https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/manual/html_node/Using-the-Configuration-System.html