From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp10.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id kNW7OIFQyWP5HAAAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2023 15:15:30 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp10.migadu.com with LMTPS id aJPbN4FQyWPdDgAAG6o9tA (envelope-from ) for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2023 15:15:29 +0100 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B3850FA65 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2023 15:15:29 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pIVgx-0001we-NZ; Thu, 19 Jan 2023 09:14:59 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pIVgw-0001wG-4h for guix-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2023 09:14:58 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pIVgv-0000x8-5U; Thu, 19 Jan 2023 09:14:57 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:Date:References:Subject:To: From; bh=fnEakI3WsXghm+qwXgflLizjP4oJICM32btFX1oPMV8=; b=LNqk7tFSLFKyCDWmyyjC daONJtAC4Jep5M/FiPzooKZHPq7mMvYLLmb7tiOB1eF+byuAowtySHRltXEJSvZjqh48ZQCYvrq46 DYsGX9dK9zjowJWWI9rsfrStYlnG9YAGSMofmhvQ5Qo0sWdRvmHFsLT7EHWBTeBF+sCQvueIJDCaj aXDjnepy23AFNqzr5qnjmNT8rFIExzkwPInyEEPJ5F+BvfeNK2hFl6jPkCbX5hwPrbVoJiN7HO/m1 83CG4SH+SqndHqcFddURDgSryHPISB/ytDbVvoskYW3sRXHKjGKLFUldXxi2iHyh7WWx5GySYwhs5 xR/Hy+/cw4zwtQ==; Received: from [193.50.110.246] (helo=ribbon) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pIVgu-0008IY-Hc; Thu, 19 Jan 2023 09:14:56 -0500 From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= To: zimoun Cc: "pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)" , guix-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: Packages grow, no longer fit on a =?utf-8?Q?=F0=9F=92=BE?= References: <87tu0s7otg.fsf@inria.fr> <87fscbravp.fsf@pelzflorian.de> <87a62hdt6c.fsf@gnu.org> <867cxk224j.fsf@gmail.com> X-URL: http://www.fdn.fr/~lcourtes/ X-Revolutionary-Date: =?utf-8?Q?D=C3=A9cadi?= 30 =?utf-8?Q?Niv=C3=B4se?= an 231 de la =?utf-8?Q?R=C3=A9volution=2C?= jour du Crible X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x090B11993D9AEBB5 X-PGP-Key: http://www.fdn.fr/~lcourtes/ludovic.asc X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3CE4 6455 8A84 FDC6 9DB4 0CFB 090B 1199 3D9A EBB5 X-OS: x86_64-pc-linux-gnu Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 15:14:54 +0100 In-Reply-To: <867cxk224j.fsf@gmail.com> (zimoun's message of "Wed, 18 Jan 2023 00:05:32 +0100") Message-ID: <874jsmd31d.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1674137729; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=fnEakI3WsXghm+qwXgflLizjP4oJICM32btFX1oPMV8=; b=U1wPI+gsN64jMl5fRWRLKi8g2kz8y12rIfH6RlYXlqgYgYKvSgNZ+tXQXHt79TBFRrH3vQ 2m6U+/3sr8NNe8mp0AH3FUH6F2dsPHyJHFqxCt8JRuFr4Mw9vs0VQMV3BzxzeFfI6aHPWp bLR3tZfgpDlwa5roMjjKqK6swHNVAnp/fIZrrYsyV/VM+/hYStOG6iyMTAvSvcK2XAuQyU NZuurXW9CEZSw/GqwnnZ50Iq+dQ/BCttpE7Ej/iDzJjZuT2wBEKjNJxDRO/sUTrTyTTBad 4dZtM3VRyCkBYJl1kAorDq1VtNhueqYYqa/J/mbl/XOCVfgJhbugJELUbveNfA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gnu.org header.s=fencepost-gnu-org header.b=LNqk7tFS; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gnu.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1674137729; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=DzndzVjXn4Rb8zD2wIjIDp4/XSdvHOWFj1b/4GGmyD/uE5fLNxvm0hOK2DinfQR5hyAdzM VYL553B6cuLCOKaf9nVCGhvX6VA14LgK7XoKg5ka+SmuB1FXDZuJZJnuXcqJyOv7FRJMM+ pZuZ/cxzg2p14HzOY5wAF0mCD8/cwciDoEqPz2XVRqTDIIxv0/I6lfEVQdGp6VqAb/VEq5 c9pVLlCNm4h0WBvezxCUZKA9Jy82Dxcgj10B10++vnx0za5rObZWeczEVn2l3J5O/D/XD3 2bXSC8c81ej///DTrzqN7kj34PUOr50zJ0t98vyXbDtvYMLT5bTNpSoNHJpH0w== X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -7.60 X-Spam-Score: -7.60 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: B3850FA65 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gnu.org header.s=fencepost-gnu-org header.b=LNqk7tFS; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gnu.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-TUID: oe7eeS7wrvU/ Hi, zimoun skribis: > On Tue, 17 Jan 2023 at 17:25, Ludovic Court=C3=A8s wrote: > >> Examples include libgccjit in Emacs and mozjs in polkit. > > Do I miss a point? How is it possible to have native compilation for > Emacs without libgccjit? I wrote: > there are also new big dependencies being pulled in for what, from a > distance, doesn=E2=80=99t really add functionality. To me, Emacs is still Emacs, with or without libgccjit. Of course JIT is an improvement, I don=E2=80=99t deny that, but what I mean is that I sti= ll use Emacs for the very same activities. This is even more true for polkit, because I don=E2=80=99t interact directly with it. > For emacs-minimal, if considered to only bytecompile (.elc) and not > native compile, this libgccgit seems unexpected, indeed. Well, is > native compilation disabled for emacs-minimal? I guess not. :-) It should probably be disabled, yes. >> Still, even compared to contemporary distros, we=E2=80=99re doing pretty= bad. >> Debian most likely does better, and people often cite Alpine as the >> distro providing the smallest packages. Do we have figures? What can >> we learn from them? What tradeoffs to they make? > > I agree we need to improve. However, I would like to mitigate. :-) > > Functional and closure makes apparent what is hard to evaluate on > =E2=80=9Ccontemporary distros=E2=80=9D. I would be curious to know the t= ransitive > closure of the testing Debian meta-package named =E2=80=99emacs=E2=80=99 = (28.2) [1], > which is roughly the equivalent of the Guix package =E2=80=99emacs=E2=80= =99. Yes, that=E2=80=99s the kind of figures we need. > Because if you dig a bit [2], for instance it depends on =E2=80=99libgccj= it0=E2=80=99. > > If you consider Alpine Linux and give a look at the dependency of the > equivalent [3] of the Guix package =E2=80=99emacs=E2=80=99, it depends on= =E2=80=99libgccjit=E2=80=99. > > These =E2=80=9Ccontemporary distros=E2=80=9D rely on version resolver whi= ch somehow > hides the costs; when these costs are clearly popping with Guix. > > For sure, we need to improve because Docker pack produced by Guix are > really more fat compared to the ones available around and usually > produced with distros as Alpine. Right, and reportedly, Alpine-based images for things like Python are smaller than what we do. There=E2=80=99s no cheating here: images are self-contained. Maybe a good topic for a sub-group at the Guix Days? :-) Ludo=E2=80=99.