From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp2.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:403:58f0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms13.migadu.com with LMTPS id 4PuHClzQcWdRegEAe85BDQ:P1 (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2024 22:42:36 +0000 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:403:58f0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp2.migadu.com with LMTPS id 4PuHClzQcWdRegEAe85BDQ (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2024 23:42:36 +0100 X-Envelope-To: larch@yhetil.org Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers eddsa verify failed") header.d=josefsson.org header.s=ed2303 header.b="NZhua/R1"; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=josefsson.org header.s=rsa2303 header.b=g5AAl9dx; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gnu.org ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1735512155; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature:openpgp:openpgp; bh=DizZesab2F7eb5qhqc8GHTCoEi/nlVO1UxoVTOxwazw=; b=Ka3Me7kjBDmQ9e3zUKX6MflU+69xaU7PHVBKpVM/vqCpqrBP5Wgt1YMsyJcsPTjITX7xJh ZlI6h8LgzJkLoeTWjKqSL/Uz7AD5qGyWCQOAkOM6D9J1EnrMe9gXcmu7BIv84ly1jGSedf hBbMhYGoHUqPmgPf/S0DhoI4cvOJAM9nNgCuIVMucvXWEhD14YXfKUebxdGB+blihVkWE2 mV0v4CYCipN6snKWdI2HKEx5JdHyoDnVaIuo2SbzmXS6JVFEhGsfQWtXRn9SFznvBZCiDO 1iE0ivOqQzo5JN77odsiLH04/eo8GvvxI7ACxtiQ/N+Utf74VZwerAcdPyMTEA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers eddsa verify failed") header.d=josefsson.org header.s=ed2303 header.b="NZhua/R1"; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=josefsson.org header.s=rsa2303 header.b=g5AAl9dx; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gnu.org ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1735512155; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=HYbwYJpog/lLtJ4CXk3z1jQB/YU4WfMwE1RRUC0NUh6Myi0sOuvtVKWh0/gw2JIQgfSgOz P4ifvXUD8MvkaXxJk0fXO8gbdC7MWkNxPjLjOQfaSoXTi0dZpiGV0hMDIQN9Eh1/Zyf1p7 Z5VnNlCO65BUKBNz0uj6lJawZzdl0KIBxw/t0VMqrD2ZViM79A1IdfUbHy9+YJUvM6cIfr zGC0QB63HPWG7r3HPwxBYq64AVe5BCrIKCd1JFGSYDe/kfbLMEk0uNecw44iC4njXPaVgV lp6k0KopF1eiCip/KtmjbcFWpQoI8RPg7T5Bp/VmPRhzFO4B21i5ZvzYh8v4rw== Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E95358E8BA for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2024 23:42:34 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tS1ys-0005wW-Qi; Sun, 29 Dec 2024 17:41:54 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tS1yq-0005wK-QO for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Dec 2024 17:41:53 -0500 Received: from uggla.sjd.se ([2001:9b1:8633::107]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tS1yo-0004lA-LH; Sun, 29 Dec 2024 17:41:52 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=ed25519-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=josefsson.org; s=ed2303; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To :Date:References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding :Content-ID:Content-Description; bh=DizZesab2F7eb5qhqc8GHTCoEi/nlVO1UxoVTOxwazw=; t=1735512088; x=1736721688; b=NZhua/R1UswsvKsolzqtjQ27pbebIZFBwx2dUkbonAFrpC/nzaICBdWklsmcA6mMVrEs7Zm9ptz ZJ4qq9QRgDg==; DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=josefsson.org; s=rsa2303; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID: In-Reply-To:Date:References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description; bh=DizZesab2F7eb5qhqc8GHTCoEi/nlVO1UxoVTOxwazw=; t=1735512088; x=1736721688; b=g5AAl9dxzLymyBNLqj+tN7ek+y9lhkyKUvPo58hOmdYP/0QTiov8ZdV1tPG72FR6768yOBhJdhj uaOEvjGlkIth/sRbUsBaKDn2TdBrj1YkguFte9Wmyop3vLKSA5ucwB8RDeX8KE2xaKShqU0QjkXQ1 cpWtVNiMImOen8Z7npXjH452SEgQjvbch9LDnUNAKj4lIojadSVHlzQTZTdnaHOgZFMzd2j/9zrHV Rigi9N1UWHhL7NmMsUPK9K39pce0/Bzifr6NyKo7oW4mcBGJk5hbJ69tNgQ4hhjidUZfnH4DvBkJl VeAckdO4XSpPKgVd4/aQHaGQwA7w5iQ828lZB5E7ZJ1SbPXawRH6xkzDAkDc40qK5CtOE9etnIh/q akkN1BSYVMayXbeoJeFdr4wg8Xa73VzS7qEhwM9dAnUptV6+9vmUEWHzuKLJbkwAXAXRTN5jV; Received: from h-178-174-130-130.a498.priv.bahnhof.se ([178.174.130.130]:54094 helo=kaka) by uggla.sjd.se with esmtpsa (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.95) (envelope-from ) id 1tS1yJ-00EzOn-B0; Sun, 29 Dec 2024 22:41:19 +0000 To: Vagrant Cascadian Cc: Ludovic =?iso-8859-1?Q?Court=E8s?= , guix-devel@gnu.org, rlb@defaultvalue.org Subject: Re: Shepherd in Debian References: <87o71g7ugu.fsf@kaka.sjd.se> <877c81ke4v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ttamjhm8.fsf@wireframe> OpenPGP: id=B1D2BD1375BECB784CF4F8C4D73CF638C53C06BE; url=https://josefsson.org/key-20190320.txt X-Hashcash: 1:23:241229:rlb@defaultvalue.org::/9o0MtU2IZFzYw1W:2bWj X-Hashcash: 1:23:241229:vagrant@debian.org::pxlT/yM+UA1rBIRQ:7TIZ X-Hashcash: 1:23:241229:guix-devel@gnu.org::tNPUXzRUjAFLZqx/:ACHB X-Hashcash: 1:23:241229:ludo@gnu.org::zvW5nMqYmZxaSYXo:I449 Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2024 23:41:44 +0100 In-Reply-To: <87ttamjhm8.fsf@wireframe> (Vagrant Cascadian's message of "Sun, 29 Dec 2024 13:37:19 -0800") Message-ID: <874j2mcdsn.fsf@kaka.sjd.se> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2001:9b1:8633::107; envelope-from=simon@josefsson.org; helo=uggla.sjd.se X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-to: Simon Josefsson From: Simon Josefsson via "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Scanner: mx11.migadu.com X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -4.30 X-Spam-Score: -4.30 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: E95358E8BA X-TUID: fpNpdrcdmjeG --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Vagrant Cascadian writes: > On 2024-12-15, Ludovic Court=C3=A8s wrote: >> Simon Josefsson via "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System >> distribution." skribis: >>> Btw, running 'herd --help' prints a lot of warnings like below. Any >>> ideas where these come from and/or how to silence them? Salsa used >>> Guile 3.0.9 and my laptop has Guile 3.0.7, if that matters. >>> >>> ;;; WARNING: loading compiled file /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/guile/3.0/= site-ccache/shepherd/scripts/herd.go failed: >>> ;;; In procedure load-thunk-from-memory: incompatible bytecode version >> >> That indicates a discrepancy between the Guile used to build the >> Shepherd and the one used at run time. Object files built by 3.0.9 (as >> is the case here) cannot be understood by 3.0.7. >> >> How=E2=80=99s that handled for other Guile packages in Debian? Vagrant = must >> know. :-) > > In short, poorly. :( > > To avoid noise like that, it may require rebuilding the package, and the > usual detection mechanisms in Debian for things that require rebuilds > (e.g. ABI bumps in C libraries) do not appear to trigger in any way with > guile packages. I think my error can be written off because I installed the Debian packages on my Trisquel laptop. The packages are still in the NEW queue but I'll look into if any of these errors remain later on. > This seems especially important with packages that have guile bindings > to C libraries (e.g. guile-git, guile-ssh, guile-zlib, etc.) which may > break in even more significant ways. > > So, the only answer I have come up with is that I periodically rebuild > stuff when it seems like it breaks. > > I suspect a fair number of the test suite failures in the Debian > packages of Guix might be due to issues along these lines. Many of the > tests are disabled for good reason (e.g. network-dependent tests or > tests that assume bootstrap binaries are available) but honestly, many > of them are just disabled to keep me from pulling my hair out. :/ > > On a good day I am happy to keep Guix and the many necessary > guile-specific packages working in Debian! On a bad day I wonder pretty > hard if it is worth the effort. I maintain quite a few guile packages in > Debian, despite being at best ambivalent to guile itself. :) > > There was a big change in Debian recently where guile was downgraded > from 3.10.x back to 3.9.x. That was a little bit exciting. > > I am not sure how to better automate or detect that sort of thing... > Guix avoids ABI issues entirely by rebuilding everything whenever > anything in the dependency chain changes, and is also perhaps a > significant driver of Guile usage ... so I can see how this might be > deprioritized in cases where ABI actually matters, though most > distributions still do largely use ABI to limit rebuilds to only when > "necessary". For what it's worth, I am happy you do maintain Guix in Debian and find it useful, and on all Debian-derived machines I run I install Guix from packaging. When I packaged guile-fibers and shepherd one idea to me was that it would be nice with a Debian Guile Maintainers team to collaborate on Guile-related packages. All these packages share similar quirky hacks in debian/rules and I noticed the error messages and cut'n'pasted the same workarounds for them that everyone else has discovered. Would this help to bridge Debian and Guix a bit? If I had seen about the guile 3.0.10 32-bit bug earlier I could have some ideas, I'm struggling with fixing some low-level packages like priv-wrapper and socket-wrapper for i386/armhf too. It is really unfortunate if guile is stuck on 3.0.9 in Debian just because of i386/armhf issues. Or is there a Debian Guile group already that I don't know about? It would be nice if the subset of people who know Guile and Debian packaging could collaborate more easily.. is talking about that on guile-devel appropriate, or should we ask for a debian-guile@lists.debian.org? Assuming we can do an inventory of guile-* maintainers in Debian and large number of them think it is a good idea. /Simon --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iIoEARYIADIWIQSjzJyHC50xCrrUzy9RcisI/kdFogUCZ3HQKBQcc2ltb25Aam9z ZWZzc29uLm9yZwAKCRBRcisI/kdFov74AQCBJj9qcuCUtaRhPDPoRiOQtkHel6lE WBXDbOf3RmHveAD9GIE54VhMhIrwrdyEotMtD7BVJEYelNmD9/0R6XK/AQg= =oyRh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--